life of battery=250 charges. Can this be right?

Discussion in 'Droid RAZR MAXX' started by Andielyn, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Andielyn
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    Andielyn New Member

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    While I was trouble-shooting my seemingly low battery life on my Razr Maxx (resolved) a Verizon tech told me that I should routinely completely discharge the battery before charging it because the average battery has only 250 charges, regardless of the battery life remaining when you charge it. What?!? I questioned him about it and said that I was under the impression that this wasn't the case with the newer batteries, and it also contradicts info I've read here in the forums.

    So, is this just BS? I've been charging nightly and a few times "topped off" when I knew I was going to be giving it some heavy use (using a golf gps app, for example). With the Maxx battery not being replaceable, I'd hate to think this is accurate info.
  2. skruid
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    skruid New Member

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    Really my d1 battery was good and I charged it every night for two years and then it died and not from the battery going bad, the digitizer went out

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using DroidForums
  3. SallyC
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    SallyC Well-Known Member

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    FoxKat addressed this question here and personally, I'd believe him over a VZ tech.
  4. Fonzz
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    Fonzz Member

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  5. thaDroidz
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    thaDroidz New Member

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    250 charges?
    Well atleast that's only 250 days well within the 1 year warranty ...

    ----posted maxx'ed out----
  6. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    :rofl3: That ^^'s not saying much... ;) :rofl3:
  7. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    I believe the issue here is the question of exactly what a charge is. 250 charges if they were 100% capacity to near 0% capacity may be pretty close considering in many cases manufacturers will peg "end of life" at where the battery will only hold between 70% and 80% of original rated capacity. For less than 100% "cycles" (full charge to full discharge), there is a considerable increase in life. For instance, reducing charge to discharge percentages to only 50% each time (half the full charge), increases the number of potential "cycles" to 1,500 (three times). This could be from 100% to 50% and then back, or it could be 75% to 25% and back. Either way, it's a cumulative number of "cycles" that determines the battery's life.

    Also noteworthy, in the testing below they discharged to a voltage of 3V each time before recharging. This is the threshold voltage set by the device manufacturer of the device in which the battery is being used, to prevent the battery from deep discharging and going into "protection mode" which causes it to become completely unresponsive to a normal charger. 3V would be somewhere near 0% on the RAZR, but could be slightly higher - perhaps as high as 15%, so it is recommended that you avoid discharging your phone to below 15%, but highly recommended to never let it go to 0% and shut down on its own.

    See below (from BatteryUniversity.com)

    Figure 1 illustrates the capacity drop of 11 Li-polymer batteries that have been cycled at a Cadex laboratory. The 1500mAh pouch cells were first charged to 4.20V/cell at 1C rate (1500mA) and allowed to saturate to 0.05C (75mA) as part of full charge procedure. The batteries were then discharged at 1500mA to 3.0V/cell, and the cycle was repeated.[​IMG]Figure 1: Capacity drop as part of cycling. A pool of new 1500mA Li-ionbatteries for smart phone istested on a Cadex C7400 battery analyzer. All 11 pouch packs show a starting capacity of 88–94 percent and decrease in capacity to 73–84 percent after 250 full discharge cycles (2010).Courtesy of Cadex

    Designed for a smart phone, the packs were already a few months old at time of testing and none of the batteries made it to 100 percent. It is common to see lower than specified capacities and shelf life may have contributed to this. Manufacturers tend to overrate their batteries; they know that very few customers would complain. In our test, the expected capacity loss was uniform over the 250 cycles. All sample batteries performed as expected.

    Similar to a mechanical device that wears out faster with heavy use, so also does the depth of discharge (DoD) determine the cycle count. The smaller the depth of discharge, the longer the battery will last. If at all possible, avoid frequent full discharges and charge more often between uses. If full discharges cannot be avoided, try utilizing a larger battery. Partial discharge on Li-ion is fine; there is no memory and the battery does not need periodic full discharge cycles other than to calibrate the fuel gauge on a smart battery.


    Table 2 compares the number of discharge/charge cycles a battery can deliver at various DoD levels before lithium-ion is worn out. We assume end of life when the battery capacity drops to 70 percent. This is an arbitrary threshold that is application based.



    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #e0e0e0"]
    Depth of discharge
    [/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #e0e0e0"]
    Discharge cycles
    [/TD]
    [TD]Table 2: Cycle life and depth of discharge
    A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life. Elevated temperature and high currents also affect cycle life.
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #eeeeee"]
    100% DoD
    50% DoD
    25% DoD
    10% DoD​
    [/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #eeeeee"]
    500
    1500
    2500
    4700 ​
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  8. TRIKOTRET
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    TRIKOTRET New Member

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    Hey foxkat. Are you a university professor. You remind me of the days in college :)

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using DroidForums
  9. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    Lol. I don't mean to come off like it but it's just a thirst for knowledge and a desire to be helpful. I really need to try harder to tone it down a bit. I don't want people to feel like they're coming to school when they spend time on the forum, but I want to give the best advice I can.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
  10. Wopback
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    Wopback New Member

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    Well you certainly have fans on here. One in- particular....lol...you got good info though, thanks.....

    I wouldn't believe the Verizon rep. Remember they work off commission...fk info is legit....

    Sent from my Chuck Norris approved DROID RAZR....
  11. jsh1120
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    jsh1120 New Member

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    Don't you dare "tone it down a bit." I LIKE feeling like I'm "coming to school" when I read your posts.
  12. SallyC
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    SallyC Well-Known Member

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    Agreed!
  13. alboboy10
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    alboboy10 New Member

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    I don't believe Verizon reps. I actually told one of them on the phone that they knew nothing, and that the information I got was from a forum where people knew a lot more than actual reps.

    250 full charges is bad. At that pace my nexus should be nearly dead lol. I charge it twice a day usually even when its mid way through.
  14. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    "blush" thanks guys and gals!

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
  15. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    Thing is for you based on your charging routine "twice a day...mid way through", you're likely to get between two and four, to upwards of five to six times that number of charges.

    See the chart above and notice the number of charge cycles it projects for 50% cycles versus 100% cycles. You'll notice it's 1500 versus 500, so if 250 is the expected number normally, for you it could be 750 or more.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  16. Trash Can
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    Trash Can New Member

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    You need a new title -- "Droid Forums' Most Informative Member"
  17. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    I'd add your quote under SallyC's but I think I'd exceed the 5 line limit! LOL! :hail:

    Thanks!
  18. SallyC
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    SallyC Well-Known Member

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    That chart is very informative. I'd been told by a friend who was told by their son (an IT guy at Max Planck) that even partial charges on Li-ion batteries counted as full charges. Intuitively, it just didn't make sense to me and I wondered if they got the message wrong. It also didn't really jibe with me, based on what I was seeing in devices like iPods.

    Great find and thanks for pointing it out!
  19. FoxKat
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    FoxKat DF Super Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

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    Never argue with a woman's intuition, I always say!

    You are spot on. Think of it this way. As battery university points out, batteries are like mechanical devices in that if you use them gently (less than full charge "cycles" each time and not either over charged or over depleted) they will last longer (number of chargings).

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
  20. cbreze
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    cbreze New Member

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    Regarding the battery, I'm having no issues and enjoy a full day of pretty heavy usage, charging nightly. I generally upgrade annually, so most likely this maxx's battery will last that long and I won't have a problem, but that being said , I was wondering what the procedure would be to change it out if need be. I know there are vids around showing a razr getting a battery lift, but I wouldn't want to take this thing apart so return it to Verizon or Motorola then? At what cost? I asked this question at the store where I got it and the guy(csr) said that's why I should get the insurance, implying that that would be the answer. I've never gotten insurance and not planning on starting now. Never needed it and saved a bundle over the years. YMMV
    Furthermore, it seems the new trends are heading to non-removable batteries, so wondering what your thoughts and opinions are regarding the hassle or at least the procedure. A return would cause one to lose the use of their device for who knows how long. Maybe they want us to just buy a new phone each time. That would work for them. ;)
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