White Light of Death?

[Celes]

My Razr Maxx died. When I plugged it in I didn't get the usual run through of the start up screens or the battery charging indicator showing me it was at 0%. Instead the battery light is now lite up white. Usually I only have to wait about 5 mins or so to turn the phone back on. I have had it on the charger for over an hour and theres is no difference. There is no battery indication of charge and the white light is still on. My phone will not turn on. Anyone know anything about this? Thanks

 

[thaDroidz]

I have no ideas, but definitely want to watch for an answer...


Is it possible to do to "power/ volume up" reset to do any good?

----posted maxx'ed out----

 

[mikeyk61]

Possible Solution

I had the same issue. White light, tried different outlets, jiggled the cord and nothing for 12 hours. I then tried different plug in my car and almost instantly up to 5% charge. Now fully working on plugs at work,so you can try this. It may work....

My Razr Maxx died. When I plugged it in I didn't get the usual run through of the start up screens or the battery charging indicator showing me it was at 0%. Instead the battery light is now lite up white. Usually I only have to wait about 5 mins or so to turn the phone back on. I have had it on the charger for over an hour and theres is no difference. There is no battery indication of charge and the white light is still on. My phone will not turn on. Anyone know anything about this? Thanks

 

[BroidDrionic]

This happened with my bionic one time. As has been said, I tried popping it in my car dock and it instantly booted. Wall chargers and USB ports just weren't cutting it I guess.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using DroidForums

 

[mikeyk61]

My wall chargers work great (and the car charger)! They (wall chargers) provide the most current, I believe. The one I had at home, that wont charge and causes white light, will be thrown away. I think it is old and possibly broke inside.

 

[FoxKat]

My Razr Maxx died...My phone will not turn on. Anyone know anything about this? Thanks

There are several threads here and many more on other forums about phones that were allowed to "die", or in other words, drained to 0% and shut down on their own. There is considerable risk in doing this. Once the phone's battery reaches 0% (about 3V), it's not very far from being unable to accept a charge at all.

From Batteryuniversity.com (Battery Fuel Gauge: Factual or Fallacy? - Battery University

Over-discharging Lithium-ion

• [*=1] Li-ion should never be discharged too low, and there are several safeguards to prevent this from happening. The equipment cuts off when the battery discharges to about 3.0V/cell, stopping the current flow. << This is what I mean by allowing it to "die"
  
  If the discharge continues to about 2.70V/cell or lower, the battery’s protection circuit puts the battery into a sleep mode. This renders the pack unserviceable and a recharge with most chargers is not possible. << And THIS is what I mean about risking the battery being unable to accept a charge at all. These batteries CAN in most cases be BOOSTED back into charging mode with a high-voltage charge for up to 1 minute and will continue to function normally from there on, but this is something that normally requires specialized equipment and must be done carefully since the risk of failure is great.
  
  To prevent a battery from falling asleep, apply a partial charge before a long storage period.[*=1]Do not recharge lithium-ion if a cell has stayed at or below 1.5V for more than a week. Copper shunts may have formed inside the cells that can lead to a partial or total electrical short. If recharged, the cells might become unstable, causing excessive heat or showing other anomalies. Li-ion packs that have been under stress are more sensitive to mechanical abuse, such as vibration, dropping and exposure to heat.

There have been many examples of people who couldn't get their phones to either begin charging or even boot up once they've shut themselves down at 0%. In some cases it took overnight before the phone became responsive, others like those mentioned here in this thread were able to jump-start them with the car adapters (which put out higher current). This ISN'T the "protection mode" described above, but instead a voltage level that is just too low and current requirement too high to support the phone's display and charging circuit while also providing the battery enough charging to allow it to rise above the rate of consumption by the phone's start-up draw. This is why in those cases, a higher current charger was able to get it back out of its stalled state.

In the diagram below you'll notice in the "stage 1" charging (far left), the battery is able to accept and will pull 1 Amp of current (dotted line) when the voltage is very low - under 3V (solid line), and yet the phone requires a minimum of just over 3V to wake up (whether into Charge only mode or full booting). If the current is insufficient to allow the voltage to rise to 3V or better, and in the mean time the phone's motherboard is trying to get 3V+ and pulling current in the process, the battery can't catch up and so the voltage remains below the 3V+ threshold, the phone doesn't wake, and the battery stalls in the charging state at under 3V.

Also the stock charger only supplies 750mAh, or 7/10 of an Amp at 5.1V, then the charging circuitry on the phone takes the 5.1V at 750mA and down-converts it to 4.2V at is able to supply about 800mAh or so. This means it's even more difficult for a deeply discharged battery to compete with the motherboard for power.

View attachment 48196


Conclusion...DON'T allow the phone to "die" at 0% on its own, charge as soon as possible after the phone indicates "Low battery", which is at 15%. If the battery does discharge fully by accident, charge as soon as possible so that the voltage doesn't continue to drop due to normal discharging and potentially put you into one of the undesirable situations mentioned above.

Charge often, don't worry about charging fully, the battery actually prefers shorter partial charges and it will last longer over time for it.

 

[Dianaa]

I have the same problem with the white light and am clueless also

 

[altjx]

FoxKat, thank you very much for this information. I've always heard that it should be "drained" at least once a month to maintain maximum battery life, but I've always assumed this meant let the phone cut off itself. Thankfully, last night I put it on the charger with it was a little less than 15%.

 

[FoxKat]

FoxKat, thank you very much for this information. I've always heard that it should be "drained" at least once a month to maintain maximum battery life, but I've always assumed this meant let the phone cut off itself. Thankfully, last night I put it on the charger with it was a little less than 15%.

The method of draining the battery on an infrequent basis was a spill-over from the Nickel Cadmium battery days (more than a decade ago), and to a lesser-extent Nickel Metal Hydride. Those batteries had a characteristic whereby if you used it for only a portion of its full charge on a regular basis, eventually the battery would "assume" that amount of charge consumed as its full capacity.

For instance, let's say you used an average of 60% of the battery's capacity, so you charge to 100% overnight, then use to 40%, then repeat, and you do that for several months. What would happen is the battery's internal chemistry would essentially build up crystals (Dendrites) that occupied the space originally occupied by the Cadmium paste which allowed charge to happen, essentially blocking that portion of the battery's physical space from being active and able to maintain a charge. So eventually even if it was fully charged, it would start dying at 40%, rather than continuing to provide power to 0% as expected. By repeated deep-discharges followed by repeated full charges, the battery would reclaim some of that space by breaking down the Dendrites. This worked - somewhat.

Eventually, there was a system developed by Cadex (the parent of BatteryUniversity.com), which would "zap" the batteries with a series of quick high voltage jolts that helped to break up those dendrites and reclaim more of the battery's charge capacity (see Battery charger and battery analyzer experts - Cadex Electronics Inc.). I still have the one I purchased back in the 90s, and used to keep my Motorola Flip Phone batteries going strong. By using this technique, they could reclaim upwards of 90% or more of the original capacity and revive batteries that would have otherwise been thrown away and replaced. The savings for fleet management (such as Police, Fire, Ambulance, Security, etc.) was tremendous. The term coined by Cadex was "Battery Conditioning". This has led to the same terms and deep discharging techniques being incorrectly applied to "other" battery chemistry. This is totally effective ONLY with Nickel Cadmium batteries and should NOT be applied to ANY other battery chemistry.

Today there are "Universal Battery Conditioners and Chargers" which are intelligent and can detect the type of battery being tested and charged, and will change the charging algorithm to fit the particular battery chemistry. Since some batteries (namely Lithium based batteries) can't be continually charged or they will rupture violently, these universal chargers are equipped to shut off charging when the battery has reached its optimum charge, then monitor it to assure full charge and "top off" as necessary while on stand-by. For us, our phones have a similar version of the same smart battery charging technology built it, so as long as you use the phone and the original charger supplied by Motorola, you'll never have to fear a problem.

 

[altjx]

The method of draining the battery on an infrequent basis was a spill-over from the Nickel Cadmium battery days (more than a decade ago), and to a lesser-extent Nickel Metal Hydride. Those batteries had a characteristic whereby if you used it for only a portion of its full charge on a regular basis, eventually the battery would "assume" that amount of charge consumed as its full capacity.

For instance, let's say you used an average of 60% of the battery's capacity, so you charge to 100% overnight, then use to 40%, then repeat, and you do that for several months. What would happen is the battery's internal chemistry would essentially build up crystals (Dendrites) that occupied the space originally occupied by the Cadmium paste which allowed charge to happen, essentially blocking that portion of the battery's physical space from being active and able to maintain a charge. So eventually even if it was fully charged, it would start dying at 40%, rather than continuing to provide power to 0% as expected. By repeated deep-discharges followed by repeated full charges, the battery would reclaim some of that space by breaking down the Dendrites. This worked - somewhat.

Eventually, there was a system developed by Cadex (the parent of BatteryUniversity.com), which would "zap" the batteries with a series of quick high voltage jolts that helped to break up those dendrites and reclaim more of the battery's charge capacity (see Battery charger and battery analyzer experts - Cadex Electronics Inc.). I still have the one I purchased back in the 90s, and used to keep my Motorola Flip Phone batteries going strong. By using this technique, they could reclaim upwards of 90% or more of the original capacity and revive batteries that would have otherwise been thrown away and replaced. The savings for fleet management (such as Police, Fire, Ambulance, Security, etc.) was tremendous. The term coined by Cadex was "Battery Conditioning". This has led to the same terms and deep discharging techniques being incorrectly applied to "other" battery chemistry. This is totally effective ONLY with Nickel Cadmium batteries and should NOT be applied to ANY other battery chemistry.

Today there are "Universal Battery Conditioners and Chargers" which are intelligent and can detect the type of battery being tested and charged, and will change the charging algorithm to fit the particular battery chemistry. Since some batteries (namely Lithium based batteries) can't be continually charged or they will rupture violently, these universal chargers are equipped to shut off charging when the battery has reached its optimum charge, then monitor it to assure full charge and "top off" as necessary while on stand-by. For us, our phones have a similar version of the same smart battery charging technology built it, so as long as you use the phone and the original charger supplied by Motorola, you'll never have to fear a problem.

Does this mean that there's no harm in charging and unplugging throughout the day that can/will potentially negatively affect the battery life?

 

[Trash Can]

Does this mean that there's no harm in charging and unplugging throughout the day that can/will potentially negatively affect the battery life?

Small charges of short duration throughout the day are good. There's evidence that this practice will prolong battery life.

 

[FoxKat]

Does this mean that there's no harm in charging and unplugging throughout the day that can/will potentially negatively affect the battery life?

Small charges of short duration throughout the day are good. There's evidence that this practice will prolong battery life.

Trash Can is 100% correct. For example, it is better to charge from 20% to 60% and then again from 20% to 60%, rather than from 20% to 100%. Shorter charges, on average from 25% to 75% of capacity will extend the battery's total life from 500 100% charges to as much as either 1,000 75% charges or 1,500 50% charges (each yielding 750 100% charges) or to 2,500 25% charges (yielding 625 100% charges).

Based on those numbers, it looks like the "sweet spot" is somewhere near or between 50% and 75% per charge. This falls right in line with the manufacturer's recommendation that you place the phone on charge as soon as the "Low battery" warning signals at 15%, and that the phone will maintain a full charge at somewhere between 90% and 100% of rated capacity (15% reserve plus 10% cushion = 25% variance against capacity, leaving 75% charge in the cycle).

 

[altjx]

Wow, 20% to 90%? I would have never guessed that range, haha.

I was curious because I have a habit of keeping my phone on the charger when I'm not talking on the phone or when I'm docked in a location (i.e. work, home) but I wasn't sure if there was such thing as "overcharging"

 

[Skull One]

Trash Can is 100% correct. For example, it is better to charge from 20% to 60% and then again from 20% to 60%, rather than from 20% to 100%.

That information is 100% incorrect and will SHORTEN your batteries life. No if, ands or buts to that. Stage 1 charging is usually from 0 to 85% of a consumer grade Lithium-Ion battery. Stage 1 charging is the MAXIMUM AMPERAGE allowed during the charging cycle and this puts the MOST strain on the chemical reaction that is occurring. This is also the LEADING CAUSE of anode plating which is what leads to premature death of a Lithium-Ion Battery.

Anyone following this advice is simply killing their battery early for NO REASON.

Shorter charges, on average from 25% to 75% of capacity will extend the battery's total life from 500 100% charges to as much as either 1,000 75% charges or 1,500 50% charges (each yielding 750 100% charges) or to 2,500 25% charges (yielding 625 100% charges).

Based on those numbers, it looks like the "sweet spot" is somewhere near or between 50% and 75% per charge. This falls right in line with the manufacturer's recommendation that you place the phone on charge as soon as the "Low battery" warning signals at 15%, and that the phone will maintain a full charge at somewhere between 90% and 100% of rated capacity (15% reserve plus 10% cushion = 25% variance against capacity, leaving 75% charge in the cycle).

You want to charge from 60% to 100% so you spend LESS TIME in Stage 1 charging and do less damage to the battery. The sweet spot is actually 85% to 100%. Because that is when the lowest amperage is used to charge the battery. Which puts less stress on the chemical reaction that is occurring.

 

[FoxKat]

That information is 100% incorrect and will SHORTEN your batteries life. No if, ands or buts to that. Stage 1 charging is usually from 0 to 85% of a consumer grade Lithium-Ion battery. Stage 1 charging is the MAXIMUM AMPERAGE allowed during the charging cycle and this puts the MOST strain on the chemical reaction that is occurring. This is also the LEADING CAUSE of anode plating which is what leads to premature death of a Lithium-Ion Battery.

Anyone following this advice is simply killing their battery early for NO REASON.

You want to charge from 60% to 100% so you spend LESS TIME in Stage 1 charging and do less damage to the battery. The sweet spot is actually 85% to 100%. Because that is when the lowest amperage is used to charge the battery. Which puts less stress on the chemical reaction that is occurring.

First off Skull One, let's turn the volume down a bit. Nobody enjoys reading a post that is entirely in BOLD and contains LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS!

Now, let's go back over this again. I never said that it was better to charge from 20% to 60% rather than from 60% to 100% (note, the same 40% of charge in each example). What I said was charging from 20% to 60% over several cycles was better than charging from 20% to 100% over the same collective percentage of charge (i.e. two charges of 40% + 40% is better than one charge 80%). It has been proven that shorter charge cycles prolong the battery's useful life. The chart in the image below and the explanation included therein prove what I've said. You are taking my words and comments out of context and making them appear to justify your view as an opposing one. See below;

View attachment 50319

Next, to say that Stage 1 charging for these phones is 0% to 85% is a misleading confusion of specifications (capacity versus useable rated current capacity). If you wish to use the percentages of useable rated current capacity as a measure, you need to be clear, since 0% of the entire battery's capacity would be a completely dead battery and it would have been in "protection mode" long before it ever reached 0%.

More correctly said, Stage 1 charging for these phones IS from about 3V (what the manufacturer has set as the minimum voltage and calibrates the meter to identify as 0% of useable current capacity,) to about 4V (which the manufacturer identifies as 90% of the difference between the 0% threshold and the maximum safe charge capacity). Stage 2 charging is from 90% of usable rated current to 100% of usable rated current at maximum safe charge level, or better said, from about 4V to about 4.2V (see chart below):

View attachment 50323

It is true that charging at "maximum amperage" (the maximum current the battery will pull if given an unlimited amount of current from which to draw) as you state "can be" detrimental to a Lithium based battery, but due to the heat which creates the stress. Anode plating occurs during periods of elevated temperature during charging, and when charging beyond the recommended maximum voltage which also increases heat. In fact, heat IS the number one cause of premature death of a Lithium based battery.

However again, taking things out of context and also applying scenarios from one world to another totally unrelated world will result in misinformation and resulting incorrect conclusion. See quote from BatteryUniversity.com;

"Prolonged charging above 4.30V forms plating of metallic lithium on the anode, while the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and produces carbon dioxide (CO[SUB]2[/SUB])...

​

Charge currents with Li-ion are less critical and can vary widely. Any charge will do, including energy from a renewable resource such as a solar panel or wind turbine. Charge absorption is very high and with a low and intermittent charge, charging simply takes a little longer without negatively affecting the battery."
​

Yes, in the RC world, where the charge rate of these batteries is often controlled not by the charger, but by the operator, these batteries are often overcharged in hopes of getting more out of the battery and also in hopes of getting "back into the race quickly", and can result in early failure and also in catastrophic self-destruction. Overcharging is the "LEADING CAUSE of anode plating". This is NOT the RC world. Quote from BatteryUniversity.com;

"Increasing the charge current does not hasten the full-charge state by much. Although the battery reaches the voltage peak quicker with a fast charge, the saturation charge will take longer accordingly. The amount of charge current applied simply alters the time required for each stage; Stage 1 will be shorter but the saturation Stage 2 will take longer. A high current charge will, however, quickly fill the battery to about 70 percent."
​

So what have we learned here? It is that charging rapidly will give you a rapidly replenished battery, but not to 100%, instead to about 70% of usable capacity, and in fact rapid charging of these batteries only shortens the entire charge cycle to 100% of usable capacity by a small amount of time.

Now, let's talk about charge rate. The rate at which these phones are allowed to charge (or better said, the current level supplied by the charger) is set by the charging circuitry. These phones are very tightly controlled in their charge rate by the charging circuitry and it is set to limits for current, voltages, time, and temperature that can not be easily circumvented by the operator - mainly to prevent the issues related to Lithium based batteries commonly suffered in the RC world.

What IS detrimental to these batteries when charging at a high current is heat. Heat in our phones' cases, is the battery's worst enemy. The battery for the RAZR is 1,750 mAh (1.75A), so to charge at even 1C (which is considered the upper limit of safe charging rate by the RC world), would require a charger that could produce 1.75 Amps. The stock Motorola charger only puts out 750mAh maximum (which is less than half that amount), so for our phones, the charger is charging at a rate of 0.43C, and extremely low rate and virtually impossible to cause stress of the battery.

Not to mention the phone has a current limiter circuit built in to prevent charging at elevated current levels, so even if you DO charge with a 2 Amp charger, such as a Apple iPad charger which puts out 2.1 Amps, the phone will only allow the safe current levels set by the manufacturer. That's not to say that the current limiter couldn't fail and allow the battery to pull up to the full 2.1 Amps, which is why the stock Motorola Charger only supplies 750mAh. See quote below from BatteryUniveristy.com:

"The charge rate of a typical consumer Li-ion battery is between 0.5 and 1C in Stage 1, and the charge time is about three hours."
​

Here's a copy of page 3 of the RAZR/MAXX Owner's Manual, and you'll notice on the left in cell 3, the little clock with the 3H on it, to signify 3 hours!!

View attachment 50322


To coin your own signature phrase...

"Facts are a wonderful thing. They can be proven true or false. Opinions on the other-hand aren't facts and generally get argued to death. I wonder which one is more helpful normally?"