Is it a bad habit to charge overnight?

[cobravnm13]

I'm glad the misunderstanding and argument has subsided and "fixed" itself over that last few pages, otherwise I was going to chime in with a completely different attitude going into this post.

That being said, I'm not going to be rude, but clarify why FoxKat did nothing wrong and was right to post such lengthy responses.

I respect Fox because he knows what he is talking about, he shall not tell a lie, and because he actually helps the members of this site. Sometimes a simple "yes" or "no" answer does not suffice. Some members actually welcome and want an exploded view, or an explanation if you will, of subject at hand. Not to mention, each and every thread created with problems or questions like the OP of this current thread help every member who reads it. Not JUST the OP, but everybody. Some people prefer a one or two word answer, but some members, like me, actually like to know the science behind it. People who like to know what they are doing, what they're dealing with, what they need to know. It helps in the long run for (certain) people to know how something works. Not asking questions and not giving proper answers is like letting someone who has never driven a car get out on the interstate going 90 MPH. Disasters will occur. Fox did the right thing in explaining in detail because it will allow people to FULLY understand what they are dealing with. Like another poster said, it keeps people from having to google it with no results, as long as people search here. And if you're a member here, you do search here. It's simple for everyone, it's a big help, and it IS VERY welcome by EVERYONE here. Especially me.

Rant has reached End of Line.

Now, if there is any misunderstanding of anything, please state what you do not understand and it will be addressed properly with no fuss. Please be considerate of others and allow others to learn if they wish. Remember, this is a COMMUNITY forum. Not a maid service that tends to a certain persons needs and wants. We help each other openly, and will continue to do so. We will also help defend the ones who are in the right any way necessary. Have a good and and please let others do the same.

Sent from my 3rd reincarnation of the ever-so-lovable Droid

 

[TRiLLSiPPiN]

Just thought of a solution!

I am going to buy one of those powerstrips with a timer on it so it automatically shuts off after 3 hours or so.... Then I will wake up it will be about 70 percent. This will be sufficient for me since I am by outlets at school all day. The lower voltage max should extend my battery's long term life span. (with quarterly test cycles of course)

Some may say this is overkill.... But I intend to keep this phone through jelly bean and Krispy Kream

1 Thessalonians 5:18

 

[FoxKat]

Just thought of a solution!

I am going to buy one of those powerstrips with a timer on it so it automatically shuts off after 3 hours or so.... Then I will wake up it will be about 70 percent. This will be sufficient for me since I am by outlets at school all day. The lower voltage max should extend my battery's long term life span. (with quarterly test cycles of course)

Some may say this is overkill.... But I intend to keep this phone through jelly bean and Krispy Kream

1 Thessalonians 5:18

Actually its not overkill. If that's what you need to do to have the battery last the lifespan you need it for, then it's a great idea and should work beautifully for you. You may have to play around a bit with the timing, but the concept is sound.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[TRiLLSiPPiN]

And the "charger" (if we're talking about the charging block plugged into the wall) plays NO role in protecting the battery from overcharge. The PHONE has a charging and monitoring system in it that both monitors and regulates the charging rate, and also determines the condition of the battery and at what point it is fully charged, where in the charge and discharge curve it is at any one time, when the battery has reached the minimum levels where the manufacturer suggests you implement charging, and at what level the battery can no longer continue to support the phone without risking deep discharging.

Also the battery itself (if a smart battery) will have its own protection circuitry built into the battery package, which monitors the battery for conditions which could create risk and damage to the battery, and this circuitry has the ability to interrupt the electrical connection between the battery and the world around it so that the battery is protected from undue risk and potential self-destruction.

So it is more accurate to say the phone's charging and monitoring (metering) system and the battery itself protect it from overcharge. I was simply stating the extreme regarding the comment about charging for 15 hours to prove a point. You can actually leave this phone on the charger for 24 hours per day, 7 days a week, constantly connected to mains and do no major harm to the battery. It will over time accelerate the aging process due to keeping the battery's voltages near or at their recommended maximum (4.2V typically), but as long as the protection circuits are functioning normally, the battery will not "overcharge". What I WAS saying is that there is no BENEFIT to charging for 15 hours, and in fact the battery is fully charged (stage 2 saturation charge) in about 3-5 hours (3 for the RAZR, 5 for the MAXX). Anything beyond will simply cause the charging system to be sitting in a wait state until if and when it determines the battery needs a slight replenishing to put it back to 100% of capacity again.

In this post you mentioned max voltages. As you can see my battery is at 4.2 and i'm only at 92%. Could my meter be reading an inaccurate percentage?

Should this be cause for concern? Last night I accidently made it to 100% and my voltage said over 4.4

1 Thessalonians 5:18

 

[nomadh]

Great explanation foxcat and I thank you for it. I tend to charge my bionic every night without turning it off. I also charge much of the day many times during the day actually. I tend to because I can usually run my battery out 1 or 2 times a day when streaming audio. On days I dont stream or use it much I might still have the battery at 60% by 6pm. I've had it about 6 or 7 months now and it has been working well for me. BUT.... I have felt that I am losing some battery duration over the last month. It would seem I am pushing this battery about as hard as can be pushed.
I guess I just wanted to add that within 6 months I might be seeing the battery degradation you mention but also the degradation isn't nearly horrible or catastrophic. So I just wanted to put this battery thing into perspective for others. Basically is seems :
Use the battery optimally and the crazy thing might live forever like some of my old dumb phones or my ipod.
or Use the holy crap out of the battery and you may want to buy a new one within a year or be forced to get one after a year
Play it somewhere in the middle and you should make it to your 2 year anniversary no problem and possibly 3 years.
My ipod spends months of its life between 25 and 85% charged with only needing to be charged every 2 weeks to 2 months and that battery may last nearly forever. I beat on my bionic battery much harder. It helps me get the most out of it so its a reasonable expense, specially now that a std battery is $6. Thank god I didn't get a razr
Thanks

 

[FoxKat]

In this post you mentioned max voltages. As you can see my battery is at 4.2 and i'm only at 92%. Could my meter be reading an inaccurate percentage?

Should this be cause for concern? Last night I accidently made it to 100% and my voltage said over 4.4

1 Thessalonians 5:18

No, your data is accurate. It will charge to a higher voltage, but after power is cut off from the charger, the voltage and current capacity will "balance" and the nominal voltage will eventually settle in to around 4.2V. Still a great observation!

Thanks for the excellent perspective! :biggrin:

 

[FoxKat]

Great explanation foxcat and I thank you for it. I tend to charge my bionic every night without turning it off. I also charge much of the day many times during the day actually. I tend to because I can usually run my battery out 1 or 2 times a day when streaming audio. On days I dont stream or use it much I might still have the battery at 60% by 6pm. I've had it about 6 or 7 months now and it has been working well for me. BUT.... I have felt that I am losing some battery duration over the last month. It would seem I am pushing this battery about as hard as can be pushed.
I guess I just wanted to add that within 6 months I might be seeing the battery degradation you mention but also the degradation isn't nearly horrible or catastrophic. So I just wanted to put this battery thing into perspective for others. Basically is seems :
Use the battery optimally and the crazy thing might live forever like some of my old dumb phones or my ipod.
or Use the holy crap out of the battery and you may want to buy a new one within a year or be forced to get one after a year
Play it somewhere in the middle and you should make it to your 2 year anniversary no problem and possibly 3 years.
My ipod spends months of its life between 25 and 85% charged with only needing to be charged every 2 weeks to 2 months and that battery may last nearly forever. I beat on my bionic battery much harder. It helps me get the most out of it so its a reasonable expense, specially now that a std battery is $6. Thank god I didn't get a razr
Thanks

Thank you nomadh for that valuable and poignant reflection. The data you provided only further bolsters my claims. You've given others a look at how a battery that's pushed will perform as well as how batteries that are babied will perform...surprise! The ones that are pushed WILL suffer, the ones babied...well they'll last a LOT longer.

:biggrin:

P.S. How about parking yourself right here...no need to roam the countryside for the REST of your life! We need more like you!

 

[eddiekeyton]

i have been trying my best to use the info you gave me foxkat. as well as passing it on to my friends to kill the myths of letting ur phone die then charge fully everyday.

Sent from my BLACK DROID RAZR using Droid Forums. Prepare to be impressified!!!!

 

[FoxKat]

i have been trying my best to use the info you gave me foxkat. as well as passing it on to my friends to kill the myths of letting ur phone die then charge fully everyday.

Sent from my BLACK DROID RAZR using Droid Forums. Prepare to be impressified!!!!

Bravo! You will certainly save someone from the "White Light of Death" (here forward aka WLOD) - I'm tired of typing that out every time!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[eddiekeyton]

before i knew about the white light of death. my ex gf phone was dropped in the tub and all it would do is turn on a little white light at the top of the phone. i somehoe kept messing with it and got it turned back on. that was about 6 months ago. so i know it is possible to recover from the white light of death. i just kept trying to power it on using the car charger and un plugging it and moving arouund the charger in the charge port and un plugging it and finally got it to power up and kept it on the car charger for a few hrs. her razr works till this day. luck?

Sent from my BLACK DROID RAZR using Droid Forums. Prepare to be impressified!!!!

 

[cr6]

Excellent and very well detailed explanation Fox! I enjoyed reading your answer to the OP and learned a lot, even though I don't have a RazrMaxx. Thx!

**tap'n**

 

[Bang Pow Boom]

Charging overnight isn't necessarily a bad habit, and is really no different than charging any other time, if you are charging for a similar length of time or charging to 100% of capacity. What makes charging overnight a potentially less than appealing practice is complicated but I'll try to explain in a concise manner, though there are enough threads from me and others here to give you the long and short of it if you wish.

Charging ANY TIME with the power ON can create a confusion for the charger's metering system which is trying to determine when the battery has reached "100% of capacity", signaling an automated shut down of the charging to prevent overcharging. Due to what is known as a "parasitic load" (the phone using power while the battery is vying for it as well), it can "perceive" that it's reached full capacity - due to a miss-read of battery voltage (the measure that identifies the level of charge), when it's much less than 100% of capacity, and so interrupt the charging process too soon.

I say 100% of capacity rather than "full" because full can be mistaken to imply the same amount each time, like "filling a glass of water", where the glass will always hold the same amount and so full is full. Batteries are a different animal. A battery has a maximum "safe" charge capacity, which starts out high from the factory, but over time and multiple hundreds of charge cycles gets smaller and smaller, until eventually the battery will only hold a much smaller portion of what it used to hold (end of life for these batteries is between 80% and 90% of what the specified capacity was when new).

The reasons why are many, but what's important to understand is that 100% of capacity for a new battery, versus 100% capacity for a battery that's 1 year old, versus 2 versus old, or one that's been charged 10 times versus 100 times versus one that's been charged 400 times, will all yield different "capacities".

It's sort of like a glass that shrinks both each day even without use, and also shrinks each time you use it. Even though the glass is smaller each new fill, if you fill it to the top each time, you are still filling it to 100% of capacity each, but its capacity is less later in its usable life. If the glass has shrunken by 20% (like a battery that's perhaps 1.5 to 2 years old or has been full cycle charged 500 times), and you fill it to the rim, it's once again 100% full, but its capacity is only 80% of what it was originally.

Imagine you and a friend decide in a pact to go shopping, and you both agree that you are each going to spend 100% of what's in your pockets at the store. Now imagine that your friend comes to the shopping spree with $100, and you bring only $80 (not much of a shopping spree, I know, but humor me for a moment). Once your shopping spree is over and you are both flat broke, your friend will have spent 100% of his or her $100, while you will have spent 100% of your $80. You both spent 100% of what you brought in your pockets, even though you had 20% less money to start. You see, 100% of anything, even zero, is still 100%.

Now, charging these specific types of batteries to 100% capacity (no matter whether it's new, 1 year old or 3 years old) actually reduces the lifespan (aging) of the battery by accelerating the "shrinking" of capacity. It's because the most stressful portion of a charge for these batteries happens at the top of the charging cycle (the last 90% to 100%). Also, the longer the battery remains at 100% of capacity, the faster it ages.

Charging fast (with higher current, or higher maximum voltage such as other third party chargers) generates excess heat which is also detrimental to a battery's lifespan. In contrast, charging in shorter charge cycles, for instance from 25% to 75% versus 15% to 100%, and also charging in the lower portion of the range (15% to 90%), will result in a battery that will take many more charges over its lifespan and will result in a greater total amount of stored power supplied by the battery over the same timeframe.

Now, the real question is, how long does the battery have to last YOU! If you are going to replace your phone with an upgrade in a year or so, then any minor shortening of lifespan caused by charging every night and leaving it on charge while you sleep over the next year or so should be of little concern for you. On the other hand, if you're the kind who will have this phone for the next 3 or 4 years, then charging overnight to 100% every time would be something you should try to avoid. There have been a couple heated discussions about this and my recommendations, yet scientific testing by expert battery companies proves this irrefutably.

The bottom line is, if you only use 40% - 60% of the power each day (like from 80% down to 40% or 20% such as with the RAZR MAXX), and you charge every night, your battery will last longer than someone who uses from 70% to upwards of 85% - or worse 100% of the power each day (like from 100% down 30% or lower) and charges every night. How much of a full charge you use each time is known as "Depth of Discharge" (DoD).

Further still, if you use only 40% - 60% each day, but charge in those shorter burst charges I mentioned throughout the day such as while in the car, or at the office PC (meaning your battery never really gets charged to 100%), rather than plugging in when you go to bed and letting it sit on the charger for 8-10 hours overnight, your battery will last longer as well. These batteries actually prefer to be charged with multiple partial charges rather than to be charged once in a full charge to 100%, and they can last up to 2-3 times longer if charged in that manner.

Whether it's practical for your lifestyle or routine to charge in such shorter bursts in the middle of the day or evening, rather than simply making it part of your nighttime routine is a question only you can answer. Whether you need it to last you 1-2 years or 3-4 years is also something only you can determine.

Also a side-note, try to avoid allowing the battery to ever discharge to 0% and automatically power down. Instead, power it down well before it reaches 0% (like at 15%), and charge as soon as possible afterwards. Just like charging to 100% is stressful to the battery, discharging to below 15% also has a diminishing effect on battery life. Also pushing the battery into a deep discharge (near or to 0%), can result in a situation where it then may not respond to the charger to accept a charge again and cause bootlooping and other failed boot consequences.

There is one thing you should practice no matter what your charging routine, except if you are using it from 100% to 15% on a frequent basis, and you charge with power off to 100%, and that's to do a 3-step "meter training" charge about every 2-3 months. It goes like this;

The next time you will not be using the phone for at least 3-5 hours (3 for the RAZR, 5 for the MAXX)...

Step 1) Power it off by pressing and holding the Power button, then selecting "Power off" from the menu.
Step 2) Plug in the Motorola Stock charger and Stock Power Cable, and allow it to self-start into "Charge Only" mode.(you'll first see the familiar red M logo, then followed by a large animated battery icon with a "liquid" level and percentage of charge in numbers). Allow it to charge in that mode for the next 3-5 hours (longer is OK, but you MUST let it reach 100%). To see what level of charge it is at any time along the way, press and release one of the volume buttons. In a few seconds you'll see the animated battery again. Let it timeout after about 10 seconds and it will resume charging.
Step 3) Once it has reached 100% charge, you may remove it from the charger and power it up normally.Now feel free to use it as you would over the next day or so, but don't place it back on charge until it has reached 15% and the phone signals "Low battery" with a screen warning and "Bong" sound.
Step 4) Once it reaches 15%, repeat steps 1 and 2 just one more time. Afterwards, you can power and charge in your normal routine until the next "training" charge in a couple months.

This "training" is done to keep the Meter and Charging system calibrated to the battery's actual and decreasing capacity over time, so when it displays 100%, it will be representing the maximum charge that the battery can safely handle at that time. Out of calibration metering can result either a lesser charge level (which would result in an apparent shorter power cycle - thinking "the battery is dying quickly"), or a higher and potentially damaging charge level. Under nearly all normal circumstances charging beyond what the battery can safely handle is not a concern since the charger is designed to prevent overcharging. However, there are some who suggest a bad practice called "bump charging" which can do considerable damage to the battery, shortening its lifespan and potentially putting it at a voltage level that could result in it self-destructing in a potentially violent end of life suicide.

Finally, charging with the power on, versus charging with power off will potentially result in considerably different charge levels. Charging with power off is the only SURE way to charge to 100% of the battery's capacity at any time. Charging with power on (as most do), can result in the phone displaying 100% charge when it's actually only charged to as much as 90%, or even considerably less.

So if you feel your phone is "dying too soon during the day", try a full "saturation" charge to 100% with the power off and see if it doesn't last considerably longer the next day. Also, feel free to use the battery to a 15% discharge level. If this results in a longer days' use, it's time to do a "training" charge cycle again.

I recommend the only times you charge to 100% with power off are when you are doing the training, or when you absolutely need the most run-time that the battery can provide for you during a day, because you are going to be away from any external power sources.

I've seen some mention taking these phones camping and questioning how to make it last through the multiple day excursions. Well, I gotta say it's not going to last if you leave it powered on constantly, and if you do ANYTHING other than make an infrequent phone call while powered on. It's not your old flip phone that could have done that while remaining powered on for the several days straight.

If you plan on being away from any typical power source, such as a wall outlet, car adapter or computer for more than a day, I recommend you invest in a portable power booster. There are plenty that can give you multiple charges and aren't all that much bigger than a wallet or pack of cigarettes.

Good luck! :biggrin:

Needs to be bumped. Just did this after the update

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Droid Forums

 

[JoshuaTucker]

Fox that is some really useful info. I have friends who think it is good to drain the battery all the way down before recharging it. They say it helps make the battery last long. I guess I'll just have to show them this thread to prove them wrong!

 

[eddiekeyton]

Fox that is some really useful info. I have friends who think it is good to drain the battery all the way down before recharging it. They say it helps make the battery last long. I guess I'll just have to show them this thread to prove them wrong!

All of my friends believe its good to let there phone die and then charge it completely. One had to prove to me that it didnt hurt to let his razr die completely. Well he ended up with the white light lmao...ihad to pull out a spliced charger to give it a boost for him...although it was hard because i couldnt stop laughing at him for it during the process of hardwiring it.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Droid Forums

 

[nomadh]

Thank you nomadh for that valuable and poignant reflection. The data you provided only further bolsters my claims. You've given others a look at how a battery that's pushed will perform as well as how batteries that are babied will perform...surprise! The ones that are pushed WILL suffer, the ones babied...well they'll last a LOT longer.

:biggrin:

P.S. How about parking yourself right here...no need to roam the countryside for the REST of your life! We need more like you!

I forgot that I read and answered this thread 2 years ago. I just wanted to update. First I didn't make it clear in my original post that by that time I'm sure I was using the much larger extended battery. I believe its double or maybe more the normal bionic battery. Well here I am 2 years later probably about 3+ years on the same extended battery. I have been using it where it can many times run down to 5% maybe 5 to 7 days a week and is being charged 15 to 25 times a week reaching 100% every night on an aftermarket charger running at about 1 amp or maybe the bionics max of 1.5 amps. I probably calibrate charge with the power off once every few months mostly by accident. Probably never done it in 2 consecutive days as suggested. (forgot about that part I have had it on long vacations abroad where I had the data turned off and the phone battery in those cases can last a week or so. At work I charge on my stock 850 mA oem charger till recently. I actually just got a usb current meter and it showed that the stock charger with my extended cable was actually only charging at 500mA. I've always suspected that charging at less that max current is gentler on the battery. In hindsight I wish I would have had the fast charger at work and the gentle charger for at home for the long overnight charge. Now I plug it into my dell pc with a good charging cable and it winds up to 1.5 amp AND THATS FROM THE PC USB PORT! Needless to say it charges much faster now.
So with that history laid out I can say that my battery is definitely not lasting as long as it used to. I have not tested it but perhaps it near capacity to the original standard battery. So perhaps I'm down to 50% original battery output but more likely I'd guess its still at 70%. So long term perspective I wouldn't worry too much about the optimum charging. I used my battery to its maximum ability to fit my schedule almost exclusively and pushing the technology almost to the point of abuse and am just getting to the point in 3 years where I need to buy another extended battery, something that cost me $25 years ago but now can be had for about $6. So I must say the technology and the charging circuit in this phone has done an outstanding job of managing my use of it. I may be the last guy still using a bionic and am just now looking at jumping to a Samsung note3 or s5 but hopefully this long term test data can be applied to most smart phone battery use.