Android....What

[piquat]

I agree with him on that, which is why I didn't quote him on that. What I quoted was his assertion that:

Needles to say the people went with the iPhone when I was in the store, and who would blame them, they hand them a phone and say here is a phone that's just like the other apple phones, not 15 different versions of Androids, who wouldn't choose the simpler way?

You can't have all this ability to mold it to your liking without all that fragentation. They go hand in hand. This tends to make things complicated. I run Linux. It's very costumizable. All the choices and the ways they are implemented, make it complicated. Same principle.

Android is fragmented, yes. Anyone who says it's not is lying to themselves or has no idea what they're talking about. But that's not the issue. I don't think you should not expect fragmentation when you have an open source OS. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not. But, and I think this is the point of the OP, fragmentation on a mobile device is far different from fragmentation on a desktop based version of Linux. The main difference being you don't have to wait to get the latest Linux version once it's released. Android is another story. You have to wait months, and sometimes you won't get it at all unless you buy a new device. Comparing mobile phones to computers isn't and will never be a fair comparison. In fact it doesn't make sense to do so.

So who's fault is it? I think it's Google's. Sure we can blame the OEMs and the carrier because that's who we get our update from, but Google is the one that's releasing version after version after version of Android with no standard release cycle and no time for OEMs to update their phones. Like I said earlier, the uproar over a rushed OTA just to make a few people happy would be ridiculous. People are always looking for someone to blame. If Motorola released a GB OTA tomorrow, and it broke functionality of several of it's phones, we'd have people here cursing Motorola to high heaven.

It's not easy to just throw together an update for android and push it to subscribers. There has to be a crapload of testing, quality assurance, retesting, and more testing. There are so many android devices with so many different hardware/software components (flash/no flash, keyboard/no keyboard, Blur/Sense/TouchWiz). You don't just compile from source and send it to Verizon to approve. I don't think the OEMs are at fault for this at all. Google creates a vanilla version, allows OEMs to modify, skin and add whatever proprietary features they want, and then do it again 3 months later. That's never going to solve the fragmentation issue.

I run Linux too. I write shell scripts. I install Apache, MySQL, PHP and mail servers on various Linux distributions. I administer databases on Linux. I've used every flavor of Linux known to man. I do the whole nine, and I can honestly say I have not seen fragmentation issues across Linux distros like I see across android devices. The point is my Linux installation on my desktop/laptop is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Android fragmentation. Android fragmentation is caused by Google's lack of a standard release cycle, and lack of full backwards compatibility between versions. If I go from Ubuntu to RedHat, I can expect some functionality to be different (but even then, it's not like I have to relearn everything I know). If I go from Ubuntu 10.04 to Ubuntu 10.10 I don't expect my applications to just stop working...and they shouldn't. With android versions, they do.

The OP, as I understood it, is not saying fragmentation shouldn't exist, he's saying Google shouldn't contribute to it getting worse by releasing version after version, and that there has to be some kind of standardization.

Linux is even more fragmented than Android. All those different versions are the fragmentation. All those different versions exist because people have the choice that was so derided in the quote I disagree with. Really, what I bolded, just kind of baffles me.

Everything else I agree with. Google, the carriers, meh, it's just business. I'm in the same boat. Probably worse because I'd hang on to this for quite a while if I could.

 

[prime]

Fragmentation is really an issue for us developers, among the various api revisions to the Android SDK they (Google) break backwards compatibility to an API and we have to make adjustments to code then recompile against a new SDK revision and hope nothing breaks for those on previous Android versions. If Google would simply unify resolution handling I would be happy. To whomever said they never had an app not function properly on an updated Android revision...it happens all the time. I've had four apps that needed to be repaired (in code) then recompiled against gingerbreads SDK to function.

 

[czerdrill]

Fragmentation is really an issue for us developers, among the various api revisions to the Android SDK they (Google) break backwards compatibility to an API and we have to make adjustments to code then recompile against a new SDK revision and hope nothing breaks for those on previous Android versions. If Google would simply unify resolution handling I would be happy. To whomever said they never had an app not function properly on an updated Android revision...it happens all the time. I've had four apps that needed to be repaired (in code) then recompiled against gingerbreads SDK to function.

Exactly. When Froyo/Gingerbread/Honeycomb comes out it doesn't just include flash or new cut and paste features and all else is fine. There are plenty of under the hood api changes that unfortunately dont provide full backwards compatibility as I mentioned in an earlier post. If you're just thinking "well my apps still work", that's great, but what you're not realizing is that your stuff works because the devs are working overtime to make it work. I can't imagine the number of bug reports that devs receive when new OS versions are released. And again, you always see updates to apps that provide support for new OS versions.

Too many people underestimate what it takes to create a successful app (successful in the sense that it works across all devices and all OS versions). They think that going to the market and hitting download is the extent of the work. It's not. Not by a long shot.

Just cause you've "never had an app break" doesn't mean that that is how it is for every user. There are far more problems then there are seamless updates.

 

[prime]

Fragmentation is really an issue for us developers, among the various api revisions to the Android SDK they (Google) break backwards compatibility to an API and we have to make adjustments to code then recompile against a new SDK revision and hope nothing breaks for those on previous Android versions. If Google would simply unify resolution handling I would be happy. To whomever said they never had an app not function properly on an updated Android revision...it happens all the time. I've had four apps that needed to be repaired (in code) then recompiled against gingerbreads SDK to function.

Exactly. When Froyo/Gingerbread/Honeycomb comes out it doesn't just include flash or new cut and paste features and all else is fine. There are plenty of under the hood api changes that unfortunately dont provide full backwards compatibility as I mentioned in an earlier post. If you're just thinking "well my apps still work", that's great, but what you're not realizing is that your stuff works because the devs are working overtime to make it work. I can't imagine the number of bug reports that devs receive when new OS versions are released. And again, you always see updates to apps that provide support for new OS versions.

Too many people underestimate what it takes to create a successful app (successful in the sense that it works across all devices and all OS versions). They think that going to the market and hitting download is the extent of the work. It's not. Not by a long shot.

Just cause you've "never had an app break" doesn't mean that that is how it is for every user. There are far more problems then there are seamless updates.

This man knows what he's talking about. +1

 

[Maverick0984]

I agree with him on that, which is why I didn't quote him on that. What I quoted was his assertion that:

Needles to say the people went with the iPhone when I was in the store, and who would blame them, they hand them a phone and say here is a phone that's just like the other apple phones, not 15 different versions of Androids, who wouldn't choose the simpler way?

You can't have all this ability to mold it to your liking without all that fragentation. They go hand in hand. This tends to make things complicated. I run Linux. It's very costumizable. All the choices and the ways they are implemented, make it complicated. Same principle.

Android is fragmented, yes. Anyone who says it's not is lying to themselves or has no idea what they're talking about. But that's not the issue. I don't think you should not expect fragmentation when you have an open source OS. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not. But, and I think this is the point of the OP, fragmentation on a mobile device is far different from fragmentation on a desktop based version of Linux. The main difference being you don't have to wait to get the latest Linux version once it's released. Android is another story. You have to wait months, and sometimes you won't get it at all unless you buy a new device. Comparing mobile phones to computers isn't and will never be a fair comparison. In fact it doesn't make sense to do so.

So who's fault is it? I think it's Google's. Sure we can blame the OEMs and the carrier because that's who we get our update from, but Google is the one that's releasing version after version after version of Android with no standard release cycle and no time for OEMs to update their phones. Like I said earlier, the uproar over a rushed OTA just to make a few people happy would be ridiculous. People are always looking for someone to blame. If Motorola released a GB OTA tomorrow, and it broke functionality of several of it's phones, we'd have people here cursing Motorola to high heaven.

It's not easy to just throw together an update for android and push it to subscribers. There has to be a crapload of testing, quality assurance, retesting, and more testing. There are so many android devices with so many different hardware/software components (flash/no flash, keyboard/no keyboard, Blur/Sense/TouchWiz). You don't just compile from source and send it to Verizon to approve. I don't think the OEMs are at fault for this at all. Google creates a vanilla version, allows OEMs to modify, skin and add whatever proprietary features they want, and then do it again 3 months later. That's never going to solve the fragmentation issue.

I run Linux too. I write shell scripts. I install Apache, MySQL, PHP and mail servers on various Linux distributions. I administer databases on Linux. I've used every flavor of Linux known to man. I do the whole nine, and I can honestly say I have not seen fragmentation issues across Linux distros like I see across android devices. The point is my Linux installation on my desktop/laptop is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Android fragmentation. Android fragmentation is caused by Google's lack of a standard release cycle, and lack of full backwards compatibility between versions. If I go from Ubuntu to RedHat, I can expect some functionality to be different (but even then, it's not like I have to relearn everything I know). If I go from Ubuntu 10.04 to Ubuntu 10.10 I don't expect my applications to just stop working...and they shouldn't. With android versions, they do.

The OP, as I understood it, is not saying fragmentation shouldn't exist, he's saying Google shouldn't contribute to it getting worse by releasing version after version, and that there has to be some kind of standardization.

I've had plenty of things break when simply upgrading versions of linux distros all over the place. You must have some kind of magic wand you twirl around before upgrading your servers.

 

[czerdrill]

I agree with him on that, which is why I didn't quote him on that. What I quoted was his assertion that:

You can't have all this ability to mold it to your liking without all that fragentation. They go hand in hand. This tends to make things complicated. I run Linux. It's very costumizable. All the choices and the ways they are implemented, make it complicated. Same principle.

Android is fragmented, yes. Anyone who says it's not is lying to themselves or has no idea what they're talking about. But that's not the issue. I don't think you should not expect fragmentation when you have an open source OS. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not. But, and I think this is the point of the OP, fragmentation on a mobile device is far different from fragmentation on a desktop based version of Linux. The main difference being you don't have to wait to get the latest Linux version once it's released. Android is another story. You have to wait months, and sometimes you won't get it at all unless you buy a new device. Comparing mobile phones to computers isn't and will never be a fair comparison. In fact it doesn't make sense to do so.

So who's fault is it? I think it's Google's. Sure we can blame the OEMs and the carrier because that's who we get our update from, but Google is the one that's releasing version after version after version of Android with no standard release cycle and no time for OEMs to update their phones. Like I said earlier, the uproar over a rushed OTA just to make a few people happy would be ridiculous. People are always looking for someone to blame. If Motorola released a GB OTA tomorrow, and it broke functionality of several of it's phones, we'd have people here cursing Motorola to high heaven.

It's not easy to just throw together an update for android and push it to subscribers. There has to be a crapload of testing, quality assurance, retesting, and more testing. There are so many android devices with so many different hardware/software components (flash/no flash, keyboard/no keyboard, Blur/Sense/TouchWiz). You don't just compile from source and send it to Verizon to approve. I don't think the OEMs are at fault for this at all. Google creates a vanilla version, allows OEMs to modify, skin and add whatever proprietary features they want, and then do it again 3 months later. That's never going to solve the fragmentation issue.

I run Linux too. I write shell scripts. I install Apache, MySQL, PHP and mail servers on various Linux distributions. I administer databases on Linux. I've used every flavor of Linux known to man. I do the whole nine, and I can honestly say I have not seen fragmentation issues across Linux distros like I see across android devices. The point is my Linux installation on my desktop/laptop is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Android fragmentation. Android fragmentation is caused by Google's lack of a standard release cycle, and lack of full backwards compatibility between versions. If I go from Ubuntu to RedHat, I can expect some functionality to be different (but even then, it's not like I have to relearn everything I know). If I go from Ubuntu 10.04 to Ubuntu 10.10 I don't expect my applications to just stop working...and they shouldn't. With android versions, they do.

The OP, as I understood it, is not saying fragmentation shouldn't exist, he's saying Google shouldn't contribute to it getting worse by releasing version after version, and that there has to be some kind of standardization.

I've had plenty of things break when simply upgrading versions of linux distros all over the place. You must have some kind of magic wand you twirl around before upgrading your servers.

Yeah...that's what it is. My magic wand....

Anyway...maybe you need to read some documentation before you go upgrading version of linux distros "all over the place". If something breaks (which is rare), it's easily fixed and the fix is documented almost instantly after release. My servers don't go down, and I don't go into a panic trying to figure out what's going on.

 

[Natey2]

Honestly the vast majority of people don't know or care what version of Android their phone runs. they walk in, pick up a DroidX, go "hey this is cool" and buy it.

Precisely. Some automobiles have flashable ROMs too. I hear Canadian vehicles from a certain manufacturer have a different ROM from their American counterparts.
And there are people who do get alternate ROMs for their car because they don't like the original one it came with. But 99.9% of those car owners don't do that.
Especially dangerous if some phone software engineer had a part in writing that ROM module

"Hey! My car's computer rebooted while I was driving on the freeway!"

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums App

 

[Natey2]

I've had plenty of things break when simply upgrading versions of linux distros all over the place.

Microsoft would probably be very happy to hear that.
Not that things don't break when one upgrades Microsoft software...

Now everyone is equal.
But some are more equal than others.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums App

 

[androidgeek]

Google is not in the business of software, Google SELLS advertising. They GIVE code away for independent developers and manufactures to place their own versions on whatever device they choose. Google gets the name and the market. What should really aggravate you is the fact that Microsoft charges you hundreds of dollars every 2 years to keep your PC up to date. Well except for me I've never bought an OS

 

[Natey2]

What should really aggravate you is the fact that Microsoft charges you hundreds of dollars every 2 years to keep your PC up to date. Well except for me I've never bought an OS

I typically use what the laptop or desktop came preinstalled with.
I'm still using Windows XP on a desktop PC and Windows 2000 on an old laptop, and Windows 7 on a new laptop, so I'm not paying hundreds of dollars to Microsoft every 2 years.
Some of those machines came with Microsoft Office and I use it. The others, I install the free OpenOffice because I don't want to pay $$$ for a word processor and spreadsheet.

I use Linux and Windows at work, but personally, for a home PC, I'd stick with Windows.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums App