US DOJ Says Apple's Court Opposition is a 'Diversion,' and the Fear is 'Overblown'; Apple Responds

dgstorm

Editor in Chief
Staff member
Premium Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
10,991
Reaction score
3,961
Location
Austin, TX
fbi-vs-apple.jpg

The latest development in the ongoing feud between the United States Department of Justice (specifically started by the FBI) and Apple, just ratcheted up the inflammatory rhetoric. The DOJ responded to Apple's recent court filing in which Apple is attempting to vacate the FBI's order to open the San Bernardino iPhone.

The prosecutors representing the United States government called Apple's stance a "diversion," and claimed that Apple's fear of was "overblown." They also said that Apple's perspective was false and "corrosive of the very institutions that are best able to safeguard our liberty and our rights."

The DOJ doubled-down on their use of the All Writs Act to give them the authority to make this demand from Apple. Furthermore, the Government accuses Apple of "deliberately" raising technological barriers preventing the government from obtaining the data on the iPhone through a lawful warrant. The court document said, "Apple alone can remove those barriers so the FBI can search the phone, and it can do so without undue burden."

They also pointed out that Apple is "one of the richest and most tech-savvy companies in the world," and claimed that Apple is "more than able to comply with the AWA order." What's particularly egregious in the document is that the DOJ makes two contradictory arguments. On one hand, the DOJ reiterates their claims that this isn't about a "master key," and that this is simply about the one iPhone they need unlocked, even suggesting that there is no evidence a narrow order would apply to other devices in the future; however, they turn right around and contradict themselves by stating, if it does, Apple is "more than able to comply with a large volume of law-enforcement requests."

Of course, Apple's legal chief Bruce Sewell, responded by speaking with reporters. He seemed almost shocked by the DOJ's legal brief. Sewell called it a "cheap shot" and said that the brief's tone "reads like an indictment." Here's a further quote from Sewell's statement,

"In 30 years of practice I don't think I've seen a legal brief that was more intended to smear the other side with false accusations and innuendo, and less intended to focus on the real merits of the case. [...]

We add security features to protect our customers from hackers and criminals. And the FBI should be supporting us in this because it keeps everyone safe. To suggest otherwise is demeaning. It cheapens the debate and it tries to mask the real and serious issues. I can only conclude that the DoJ is so desperate at this point that it has thrown all decorum to the winds...."

What do you folks think? Did the Department of Justice go too far in vilifying Apple with such harsh legal language?
 
Last edited:

thunderbolt_nick

Thunderbolt Rescue Squad
Rescue Squad
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
1,185
Reaction score
609
Location
Orlando, FL
Website
www.nickburress.com
Current Phone Model
Nexus 6P
Twitter
@nickburress2k2
Well then. I don't necessarily see it as 'vilifying' as more of the stance they see Apple is making. Admittedly, some of what Apple says is 'overblown' but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a 'diversion' or they are doing purposefully. Apple is merely interpreting the law differently than what the DOJ sees it. I'll reiterate. I'm not for or against any particular organization in this, but it is something that needs to be discussed and like that New York judge said, "It should be up to lawmakers and the society to determine what is best suited in this case."
 
Last edited:

GAstorino

Active Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
105
Reaction score
26
Location
Portland, OR
I would say that Apple propose that if the DOJ is saying that they can't hack the phone and Apple offers a bounty that if anyone can come and do it without Apple's help like Snowden for example said can be done, then the money MUST come out of the pension and pockets of those in the DOJ making the claims. If not then Apple must come up with the cash to compensate and then do what the court ordered. Time government employees put their own money where their mouth is because none ever are held accountable for what they say or do.
 

chevycam94

SteelDroid ROM / Cortex ROM Developer
Developer
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,616
Reaction score
153
Location
Central Ohio
Website
steelroms.com
Current Phone Model
Nexus 6P, VZW Note Edge, D1
Apple just needs to unlock the phone. Plain and simple. It COULD contain contacts to other terrorists, or have dates/targets for future attacks. Please explain to me how keeping that information inaccessible, is keeping people SAFE!? WTF!? Are you serious? What of Apple headquarters was one of the targets? LOL. Wouldn't at least APPLE want to know?

Dumbest company EVER!
 

mountainbikermark

Super Moderator
Staff member
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
7,563
Reaction score
4,034
I would say that Apple propose that if the DOJ is saying that they can't hack the phone and Apple offers a bounty that if anyone can come and do it without Apple's help like Snowden for example said can be done, then the money MUST come out of the pension and pockets of those in the DOJ making the claims. If not then Apple must come up with the cash to compensate and then do what the court ordered. Time government employees put their own money where their mouth is because none ever are held accountable for what they say or do.
Ummm that's my money and yours you are saying should be used to pay for it. We The People pay their salary and benefits.
Apple just needs to unlock the phone. Plain and simple. It COULD contain contacts to other terrorists, or have dates/targets for future attacks. Please explain to me how keeping that information inaccessible, is keeping people SAFE!? WTF!? Are you serious? What of Apple headquarters was one of the targets? LOL. Wouldn't at least APPLE want to know?

Dumbest company EVER!
Ok let's say they do. Let's say there's a certain activity you like to do that one day becomes illegal to do. At that point it could be YOUR phone they unlock searching for others that partake in the activity you like to do that is now legal.
Imagine if there'd been cellphones during prohibition and the government had had the means to unlock phones of those busted at a speak easy or an arrest of a driver carrying moonshine.

Support Our Troops!!!
Beast Mode 4
<><
 
  • Like
Reactions: cr6

Ollie

Droid Does
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
3,424
Reaction score
2,068
Location
South Coast
Current Phone Model
Note Edge - iPhone 6 Plus
Apple has helped to unlock 70, that's right, 70 phones previously to this one.

Why all of a sudden are they making a big stink now? It is a marketing ploy plain and simple.

This phone does not require a program written that could unlock all iPhones. It wouldn't work on the newer ones anyway.

The FBI is not asking for an encryption bypass on this phone. I would not support that either.

I find it very, very odd that Apple gave up its source code to the Chinese government to get their foot into China and now they are snubbing our very own government.

Foul play.
 

chevycam94

SteelDroid ROM / Cortex ROM Developer
Developer
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,616
Reaction score
153
Location
Central Ohio
Website
steelroms.com
Current Phone Model
Nexus 6P, VZW Note Edge, D1
Even if it WAS my phone that they had to unlock (fine by me), if I did something wrong, and could have conspirators, then it would be a GOOD thing if the FBI knew about them. No matter how you try to defend it, covering up illegal actions, accomplices, and any other information to be used in a criminal case, in itself is a crime. So yes, Apple is by definition "interfering with an ongoing investigation".

Like @Ollie said, an encryption bypass is NOT what they asked for, then just want Apple to unlock it, and THEN hand them the phone. Apple can keep its secret to itself, and STILL comply with the FBI's request. Almost ALL businesses have "secrets". It could be blueprints to electronics or planes, a food recipe for McDonalds "secret sauce", or anything else. Those companies have NO issues keeping their secrets from outsiders (including splitting up the "secret" into multiple pieces, so no single person has ALL the information). Apple can do exactly the same thing, they are just being little snot-nosed, hot-headed, foot-stomping 3 year olds.

Could you image if every company had the right to tell the government that the just didn't have to comply with any rules because they "don't want to"? I don't want to hand over stolen property. I don't want to pay my overdue taxes. I don't want to give up the federal fugitive that I KNOW the exact location of. Thats the kind of crap Apple is trying to pull. Just do it!

Maybe I know the location of 3 of Americas Most Wanted criminals. I have them stored on a note on my phone. But oh, wait, its locked and encrypted. TOUGH LUCK! Nobody can get that information. I WIN! LMFAO So, in my case, just like the iPhone, your not allowed in my stuff. LOL, that's the dumbest thing Ive ever heard!

How about this. If you cant look at my phone, then you shouldn't be allowed to look at my computer, tablet, or any of my other stuff, calling that invasion of privacy.

We all know Apple is wrong. Power and money got to their heads, and they are screwing things up. Since they cant come up with any new technological innovations, they have to turn to being media whores to get attention again. I have to say, its sure working!
 

cr6

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
8,281
Reaction score
5,802
Location
NW Rocky Mtn region
Website
www.dronewolfmedia.com
Current Phone Model
Galaxy S7 Edge
Twitter
@dronewolfmedia
This is 2 years old so I can only imagine how much they've accomplished since then Revealed: The NSA’s Secret Campaign to Crack, Undermine Internet Security but maybe Apple is tired of being pushed around by the govt. They NEEDED to take a stand regarding this issue. While it doesn't make this crime any less horrific, I'd much rather it happen now, during a case in which obtaining said smartphone information isn't going to do all that much for the FBI, being that they already know who committed the crime.
That, and its about time this topic is finally in the spotlight. Snowden released much more important information about our privacy and the govt overstepping their boundaries, what 2 years ago now, and the American public didn't seem to give a crap. THAT is what bothers me.

S5 tap'n
 

liftedplane

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2011
Messages
2,303
Reaction score
793
Location
Washington State
Maybe I know the location of 3 of Americas Most Wanted criminals. I have them stored on a note on my phone. But oh, wait, its locked and encrypted. TOUGH LUCK! Nobody can get that information. I WIN! LMFAO So, in my case, just like the iPhone, your not allowed in my stuff. LOL, that's the dumbest thing Ive ever heard!

How about this. If you cant look at my phone, then you shouldn't be allowed to look at my computer, tablet, or any of my other stuff, calling that invasion of privacy.

We all know Apple is wrong. Power and money got to their heads, and they are screwing things up. Since they cant come up with any new technological innovations, they have to turn to being media whores to get attention again. I have to say, its sure working!
NO YOU think you know apple is wrong, don't state your opinion as if it's mine.

if your phone has the location and they know it and they can't unlock it then break YOU the person if the person is dead the tough luck.

and I agree they should NOT have access to my computer, and if I've taken the time to encrypt my entire computer and prevent ANYONE from accessing it then that's my prerogative. I expect my electronics that I can secure in this way to remain secure REGARDLESS of my personal activities.

or I guess screw any and all personal security and let ALL of our personal information be completely out in the open and no more privacy and let big brother track anything and everything we do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cr6

mountainbikermark

Super Moderator
Staff member
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
7,563
Reaction score
4,034
Even if it WAS my phone that they had to unlock (fine by me), if I did something wrong, and could have conspirators, then it would be a GOOD thing if the FBI knew about them. No matter how you try to defend it, covering up illegal actions, accomplices, and any other information to be used in a criminal case, in itself is a crime. So yes, Apple is by definition "interfering with an ongoing investigation".

Like @Ollie said, an encryption bypass is NOT what they asked for, then just want Apple to unlock it, and THEN hand them the phone. Apple can keep its secret to itself, and STILL comply with the FBI's request. Almost ALL businesses have "secrets". It could be blueprints to electronics or planes, a food recipe for McDonalds "secret sauce", or anything else. Those companies have NO issues keeping their secrets from outsiders (including splitting up the "secret" into multiple pieces, so no single person has ALL the information). Apple can do exactly the same thing, they are just being little snot-nosed, hot-headed, foot-stomping 3 year olds.

Could you image if every company had the right to tell the government that the just didn't have to comply with any rules because they "don't want to"? I don't want to hand over stolen property. I don't want to pay my overdue taxes. I don't want to give up the federal fugitive that I KNOW the exact location of. Thats the kind of crap Apple is trying to pull. Just do it!

Maybe I know the location of 3 of Americas Most Wanted criminals. I have them stored on a note on my phone. But oh, wait, its locked and encrypted. TOUGH LUCK! Nobody can get that information. I WIN! LMFAO So, in my case, just like the iPhone, your not allowed in my stuff. LOL, that's the dumbest thing Ive ever heard!

How about this. If you cant look at my phone, then you shouldn't be allowed to look at my computer, tablet, or any of my other stuff, calling that invasion of privacy.

We all know Apple is wrong. Power and money got to their heads, and they are screwing things up. Since they cant come up with any new technological innovations, they have to turn to being media whores to get attention again. I have to say, its sure working!
Most of this post makes no sense at all. Taxes? Not the same thing. Secret recipe for KFC? Not even close to same thing.
As far as "we all know" anyone is right or wrong here, you're jumping to one heck of a conclusion and you may have heard the old saying about assumptions.
Google is your friend and if you choose not to seek the truth never say there was never anyone who tried to help you when that utopia so many want to believe is coming as they just hand over even more rights turns out to be the reverse

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me." Often attributed to
Martin Niemölle as the author of the above poem.


Support Our Troops!!!
Beast Mode 4
<><
 
Last edited:

UrbanBounca

Rescue Squad
Staff member
Premium Member
Rescue Squad
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
2,749
Reaction score
207
Location
Virginia
Apple just needs to unlock the phone. Plain and simple. It COULD contain contacts to other terrorists, or have dates/targets for future attacks. Please explain to me how keeping that information inaccessible, is keeping people SAFE!? WTF!? Are you serious? What of Apple headquarters was one of the targets? LOL. Wouldn't at least APPLE want to know?

Dumbest company EVER!
This post is so unfortunate. The men and women that sacrificed for your privacy, and you're ready to throw it out so quickly.
 

liftedplane

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2011
Messages
2,303
Reaction score
793
Location
Washington State
Apple just needs to unlock the phone. Plain and simple. It COULD contain contacts to other terrorists, or have dates/targets for future attacks. Please explain to me how keeping that information inaccessible, is keeping people SAFE!? WTF!? Are you serious? What of Apple headquarters was one of the targets? LOL. Wouldn't at least APPLE want to know?

Dumbest company EVER!
If you honestly believe this then I've got some oceanside property in Nevada I'd love you to take off my hands.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 

xeene

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
3,479
Reaction score
1,004
Location
detroit, usa
This case needs to be decided in court of law by the people of this country. They are the ones who's privacy vs security is on the line.

I see both sides of this discussion and honestly can't be for or against either one. Both side can be snake oil salesmen when it benefits them.
 

chevycam94

SteelDroid ROM / Cortex ROM Developer
Developer
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,616
Reaction score
153
Location
Central Ohio
Website
steelroms.com
Current Phone Model
Nexus 6P, VZW Note Edge, D1
This post is so unfortunate. The men and women that sacrificed for your privacy, and you're ready to throw it out so quickly.

Dont get me wrong, Im all FOR privacy, but NOT when it comes down to the lives of others. If the information on that phone had the potential to save thousands of lives, then YES, it should be unlocked, of course! If you believe that the information on that phone should stay lost forever, then theres a high chance that another terrorist attack or other serious crime could have been prevented, but you DIDNT want it stopped (even though you knew there was a chance you could have stopped it).

Why would you want to toss away innocent lives because you believed TOO strongly in privacy to take it to extraordinary extremes? Thats just dumb thinking. Privacy should be enforced, I have no objection to that, but there comes a point where that has to be overridden for the bigger benefit. Dont be selfish and try to make ALL information private permanently. In this case, yes, the information SHOULD be unlocked so that future potential criminal activity has the possibility to be prevented. Something is more than nothing.
 

chevycam94

SteelDroid ROM / Cortex ROM Developer
Developer
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,616
Reaction score
153
Location
Central Ohio
Website
steelroms.com
Current Phone Model
Nexus 6P, VZW Note Edge, D1
NO YOU think you know apple is wrong, don't state your opinion as if it's mine.

if your phone has the location and they know it and they can't unlock it then break YOU the person if the person is dead the tough luck.

and I agree they should NOT have access to my computer, and if I've taken the time to encrypt my entire computer and prevent ANYONE from accessing it then that's my prerogative. I expect my electronics that I can secure in this way to remain secure REGARDLESS of my personal activities.

or I guess screw any and all personal security and let ALL of our personal information be completely out in the open and no more privacy and let big brother track anything and everything we do.

Read my previous post. Nobody said that ALL your information should be exposed. You have the option to keep your stuff locked up, but for the greater good, and for peoples lives being at stake, that privacy should be overridden.

Think about all the crimes that would have gone unsolved if the police/FBI were NOT allowed to access personal data of the criminals they were after. Those that are complaining at me for what Im saying apparently dont see what Im getting at. It make total sense.

You can have your privacy, but when you commit a serious crime, your no longer immune to being data mined. You gave up your freedom and rights when you committed the crime, so why should you have all the same luxuries as others when it comes to privacy? You shouldnt!
 
Top