Verizon Wireless Blocks The Updating Of Apps They Feel Are Unauthorized

[SquireSCA]

But the problem is that there are people sending plates out to the parking lot to friends.

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And I would agree with you there. If I want to run a cable TV line to another room in my house, I can. But if I start running cables across the lawn to my neighbors, they should crack down on that and me.

 

[SquireSCA]

Under this premise, you should be paying extra for every device that you connect to your home network beyond your primary PC. You are paying for ONE data connection to your cable modem/router, but then you are splitting it to multiple devices, but it call comes in through the same device, all a single connection. With your cell phone, you are paying for ONE data connection to your cell phone, why does it matter where the data goes once it goes through your cable modem/router/cell phone?

That really is the best analogy. I mean, if it is all about "preserving the performance of the network", then base the charges and things on how much data is being used.

Why is tethering and only using a total of 1GB a month on an unlimited plan "worse" than someone who doesn't tether and uses 7GB a month on an unlimited plan?

You have to peel back the marketing crap and the "justifications" and realize that most of what they say is carefully crafted rhetoric, and it's all about money. The person using tons of data on an unlimited plan is actually doing more harm than the person tethering but using a fraction of the data that they payed for. But VZW sees a way to make more money off of the person using less data.

I don't see any difference between your ISP and this. What, because one comes over a physical wire, it makes a difference? Would any of us here use an ISP that charged you for each device in your home for internet access? And if your friend came over with his iPad and jumped on your Wifi, you got dinged a $5 charge on your next internet bill?

Of course not, nobody would tolerate that. We pay $75 a month for a cable model or DSL and we plug it into a router and share it with different devices. Now if I run torrents 24/7 and suck up 2TB a month, then I expect a letter in the mail from Comcast, but that is because I abused the data, not because I had 3 PC's on my router...

They did this stuff with TV's and internet connections, even landline phones, and in all cases they had to shift to a model that says, "We provide the service to your wall jack, if you want to run lines to other rooms and devices that is fine so long as it is within the confines of your home and you do not abuse the bandwidth limitations"...

Until more people demand this of wireless carriers, we will continue to have this crap. If enough people complain and say enough, I think that wireless will go the same way as all the other services over the years... They will only continue to do this if we let them.

 

[Trusstopher]

That really is the best analogy. I mean, if it is all about "preserving the performance of the network", then base the charges and things on how much data is being used.

Why is tethering and only using a total of 1GB a month on an unlimited plan "worse" than someone who doesn't tether and uses 7GB a month on an unlimited plan?

You have to peel back the marketing crap and the "justifications" and realize that most of what they say is carefully crafted rhetoric, and it's all about money. The person using tons of data on an unlimited plan is actually doing more harm than the person tethering but using a fraction of the data that they payed for. But VZW sees a way to make more money off of the person using less data.

I don't see any difference between your ISP and this. What, because one comes over a physical wire, it makes a difference? Would any of us here use an ISP that charged you for each device in your home for internet access? And if your friend came over with his iPad and jumped on your Wifi, you got dinged a $5 charge on your next internet bill?

Of course not, nobody would tolerate that. We pay $75 a month for a cable model or DSL and we plug it into a router and share it with different devices. Now if I run torrents 24/7 and suck up 2TB a month, then I expect a letter in the mail from Comcast, but that is because I abused the data, not because I had 3 PC's on my router...

They did this stuff with TV's and internet connections, even landline phones, and in all cases they had to shift to a model that says, "We provide the service to your wall jack, if you want to run lines to other rooms and devices that is fine so long as it is within the confines of your home and you do not abuse the bandwidth limitations"...

Until more people demand this of wireless carriers, we will continue to have this crap. If enough people complain and say enough, I think that wireless will go the same way as all the other services over the years... They will only continue to do this if we let them.

Well said. And you made a point that leads nicely into something I was thinking but didn't really have a reason to bring it up: I am one of those that may tether to my laptop a total of 6 times a year to send an e-mail or DL a file but I am consistently under a 1GB a month, usually around 0.5-0.8GB. Even though they haven't started going after people, and they may never start doing it, if it got to the point to where I had to have a tether package to be able to use it 6 times a year and I'm still on unlimited, you can bet that I will "get my money's worth" and will a far bigger detriment to the health of the network in my area than I ever was before.

 

[debdroid1a]

Okay, maybe people don't realize, but if Verizon can tell that you're using different devices to access data, then you are not "eating" at one place. And yes they can tell. And if they can tell, it is different data. Which means you pay for what you agreed to pay for.

 

[sbenson]

Okay, maybe people don't realize, but if Verizon can tell that you're using different devices to access data, then you are not "eating" at one place. And yes they can tell. And if they can tell, it is different data. Which means you pay for what you agreed to pay for.

Say again?

 

[SquireSCA]

Okay, maybe people don't realize, but if Verizon can tell that you're using different devices to access data, then you are not "eating" at one place. And yes they can tell. And if they can tell, it is different data. Which means you pay for what you agreed to pay for.

Same data, same place.

All that changes is what utensil you used. Did I visit FoxNews on my phone or did I access FoxNews on my tablet? Same webpage, same data, coming through the same data plan and the same handset.

This is not about what they CAN do. Yes, they can charge you for each device, or they could charge you for this and that and nickle and dime you to death if you let them.

This is about whether or not they SHOULD. And some of us feel, that just like cable TV, landline phones and ISP's, that they will need to abandon this at some point and follow suit.

Just because a business CAN get away with something, doesn't mean that they should, or that it will last. It didn't in any of the other industries, and I don't think it will last here.

 

[czerdrill]

I hope the fcc complaint goes all the way to the top, so people can stop using the "the fcc would stop this if someone complains" thing. Of course at that point we'll hear more conspiracy theories about how the fcc was paid off by verizon or something

 

[SquireSCA]

Look at it like texting. Recently, a study showed that of every service that VZW offers, text plans have the highest profit margins. They just print themselves money and rip customers off because nobody really say down and looked at the numbers. The cost of sending a text is minimal. But they charge 10 cents per text, which is about a 1,000% markup. They do that in order to get you to sign on for the unlimited text plan, by making it appear like a cheaper route. BuCheck this out:

BAD NEWS ? The highest profit margins on earth ? text messages. » Fresh News - Brought to you by Gorham Savings Bank

"Profit margins (net income divided by revenue), varies widely by industry. Grocery stores have margins in the 6% range, banks in the 2-3% range, and big breweries in the low 20’s. But check out text message profit margins. Let’s pick on AT&T which charges $0.20 per text message for those without an unlimited plan. So their revenue is 20 cents on one text message. A text message is typically limited to 160 characters, and a character takes up one byte, meaning a text message is about 160 bytes. AT&T’s data plan, for those wanting the best deal, cost $25 for 2 gigabytes, and a gigabyte is about one billion bytes. This means they are charging 100,000 more per byte for their text message plan than their data plan. ($0.20/160) / ($25/2Bil) = 100,000. Even if their data plan is “at cost” (which is a very conservative assumption), that’s at least a 99999/100000 or 99.999% profit margin. It’s even higher if you only text, “LOL.”"

So they charge you through the nose for soemthing that costs then next to nothing. So a lot of people have switched to mobile apps for texting which just use the phone's data plan. So now VZW and others are looking to not offer a text plan, but to just make it mandatory by adding the cost of the text plan into the data plan, so that you have to pay for it even if you don't want it. This is how they will keep that cash cow alive and encourage people to not use free 3rd party apps, as most will figure, "I am paying for it anyway, might as well use it"...

This is a tangent, I know, but it shows that same mindset of "how can we gouge customers for every penny we can" and charging for things that they perhaps shouldn't.

 

[czerdrill]

Look at it like texting. Recently, a study showed that of every service that VZW offers, text plans have the highest profit margins. They just print themselves money and rip customers off because nobody really say down and looked at the numbers. The cost of sending a text is minimal. But they charge 10 cents per text, which is about a 1,000% markup. They do that in order to get you to sign on for the unlimited text plan, by making it appear like a cheaper route. BuCheck this out:

BAD NEWS ? The highest profit margins on earth ? text messages. » Fresh News - Brought to you by Gorham Savings Bank

"Profit margins (net income divided by revenue), varies widely by industry. Grocery stores have margins in the 6% range, banks in the 2-3% range, and big breweries in the low 20’s. But check out text message profit margins. Let’s pick on AT&T which charges $0.20 per text message for those without an unlimited plan. So their revenue is 20 cents on one text message. A text message is typically limited to 160 characters, and a character takes up one byte, meaning a text message is about 160 bytes. AT&T’s data plan, for those wanting the best deal, cost $25 for 2 gigabytes, and a gigabyte is about one billion bytes. This means they are charging 100,000 more per byte for their text message plan than their data plan. ($0.20/160) / ($25/2Bil) = 100,000. Even if their data plan is “at cost” (which is a very conservative assumption), that’s at least a 99999/100000 or 99.999% profit margin. It’s even higher if you only text, “LOL.”"

So they charge you through the nose for soemthing that costs then next to nothing. So a lot of people have switched to mobile apps for texting which just use the phone's data plan. So now VZW and others are looking to not offer a text plan, but to just make it mandatory by adding the cost of the text plan into the data plan, so that you have to pay for it even if you don't want it. This is how they will keep that cash cow alive and encourage people to not use free 3rd party apps, as most will figure, "I am paying for it anyway, might as well use it"...

This is a tangent, I know, but it shows that same mindset of "how can we gouge customers for every penny we can" and charging for things that they perhaps shouldn't.

What your describing is known as capitalism. Every company on the planet does this.

 

[SquireSCA]

What your describing is known as capitalism. Every company on the planet does this.

Yes, and the thing about capitalism is that it works two ways, not just for the corporation. Every company will try to charge for anything and everything that it can. If Ford found a way to charge you more for making left turns with their vehicles, they probably would.

But the thing about Capitalism is that it only works when the consumers allow it. Right now, we do, but I don't think it will last forever. That was why I pointed out the cable TV, ISP, landline phones, etc... Those business models started the same as VZW is doing now. Newer technologies, charging for anything and everything they can think of. But at some point, either consumers get fed up and demand change, with their wallets, or competition sees that demand in the marketplace and steps in and offers whatever is lacking and if the other businesses want to compete, they have to follow suit.

People were getting fed up with outrageously high cell phone bills. So Sprint steps in with a $99 unlimited everything plan, and suddenly the other carriers are forced to cut prices on their plans.

The only reason VZW is getting away with charging twice for the same data is because they think that enough people will allow it for them to get away with it. As soon as some other company bundles it in with the data plan and doesn't charge extra so long as you stay within a specified usage amount, VZW and others will have to cave in.

 

[Trusstopher]

Yes, and the thing about capitalism is that it works two ways, not just for the corporation. Every company will try to charge for anything and everything that it can. If Ford found a way to charge you more for making left turns with their vehicles, they probably would.

But the thing about Capitalism is that it only works when the consumers allow it. Right now, we do, but I don't think it will last forever. That was why I pointed out the cable TV, ISP, landline phones, etc... Those business models started the same as VZW is doing now. Newer technologies, charging for anything and everything they can think of. But at some point, either consumers get fed up and demand change, with their wallets, or competition sees that demand in the marketplace and steps in and offers whatever is lacking and if the other businesses want to compete, they have to follow suit.

People were getting fed up with outrageously high cell phone bills. So Sprint steps in with a $99 unlimited everything plan, and suddenly the other carriers are forced to cut prices on their plans.

The only reason VZW is getting away with charging twice for the same data is because they think that enough people will allow it for them to get away with it. As soon as some other company bundles it in with the data plan and doesn't charge extra so long as you stay within a specified usage amount, VZW and others will have to cave in.

Which is why VZW wants the AT&T/T-Mo merger to go through... one less company to go against the status quo and shake the pricing structure up.

 

[SquireSCA]

Which is why VZW wants the AT&T/T-Mo merger to go through... one less company to go against the status quo and shake the pricing structure up.

Bingo!

If there are only 2 or 3 choices in town, and they all sorta agree to keep pricing where it is, then it hurts the consumer. To me, that isn't Capitalism at work, that's almost a Monopolistic approach, even it if involves more than one entity... the results can be nearly the same...

Let's be honest, $100-$150 a month for a cell phone line and data plan is highway robbery, but what can you do if they all charge roughly the same? In today's world, you pretty much need a cell phone, so you don't have many choices.

 

[czerdrill]

Bingo!

If there are only 2 or 3 choices in town, and they all sorta agree to keep pricing where it is, then it hurts the consumer. To me, that isn't Capitalism at work, that's almost a Monopolistic approach, even it if involves more than one entity... the results can be nearly the same...

Let's be honest, $100-$150 a month for a cell phone line and data plan is highway robbery, but what can you do if they all charge roughly the same? In today's world, you pretty much need a cell phone, so you don't have many choices.

I agree here but the point is unless you guys want a complete overhaul of the free market capitalist society, not much is going to change here. If people pay for a product companies will charge for it. If people agree to certain terms, companies will enforce those terms. The fcc case, if it gets anywhere (and I doubt it will) will prove that point.

Companies are there for profit. There will never be a company whose prices everyone agrees with. It will always be unfair to the consumer whether it's really unfair or not.

Of course I could be 100% wrong and we'll soon have free tethering haha but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[sb1831]

Let's be honest, $100-$150 a month for a cell phone line and data plan is highway robbery, but what can you do if they all charge roughly the same? In today's world, you pretty much need a cell phone, so you don't have many choices.

Please tell me what the appropriate price for phone service and internet access in a portable form factor should be. Just curious seeing as I pay nearly $100 a month for a land line and internet access in my house that is useless as soon as I get in my vehicle.

 

[thejas]

Bingo!

If there are only 2 or 3 choices in town, and they all sorta agree to keep pricing where it is, then it hurts the consumer. To me, that isn't Capitalism at work, that's almost a Monopolistic approach, even it if involves more than one entity... the results can be nearly the same...

Let's be honest, $100-$150 a month for a cell phone line and data plan is highway robbery, but what can you do if they all charge roughly the same? In today's world, you pretty much need a cell phone, so you don't have many choices.

I agree with this which is why I chose page plus. It's amazing once you don't have data or limit it, how comfortable you are with not using it. So many places offer wi-fi in my area, I just can't justify the cost of the data plans. Most of the pre-paid companies on verizons network have little or no data per month. With page plus you get 20/mb with the unlimited txt and talk plan ($45/month) or 100mb with the 1200 min 2000 txt plan (30/month) all on verizons network.