Fragmentation sucks

Discussion in 'Droid Forums Member News Depot' started by czerdrill, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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  2. boristhebladexx
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    boristhebladexx New Member

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    some of that article isn't exactly fair i.e. how long the newest iOS has been out vs 2.3. its not a fair comparison at all, although i do agree with the overall theme that fragmentation is a problem
  3. 252chevyboyz
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    252chevyboyz New Member

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    I agree with Boris on this one 2.3 hasn't been out long at all. The theme is kinda fragmented but the few parts that have been tested are good. 3g or the signal might need a lil attention? Any thoughts? I like GB just wish it would be officially released by vzw. Hoping February or march maybe?

    Sent from my rooted D2
  4. turdbogls
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    turdbogls New Member

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    what you dont hear in that blog is the statistics where when they say 90% of apple products are on the latest iOS version, they are saying version 4.x (so 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3) and they compare that to one version of android. 2.3.....if you look at version 2.x for android, we are right up there with apple (i believe we were at 87%) then you have to take into consideration the ipod touch's and ipads as they all run iOS.
    i read an article about it but cant seem to find it.
    EDIT: found it
    http://www.droid-life.com/2011/01/1...android-users-are-as-current-as-iphone-users/

    anyway, i agree fragmentation sucks, but to be honest, pretty much every phone out there could run android 2.3, but they dont take the time to money to do it since the latest and greatest is just around the corner....its silly to just throw money in something that doesn't get you any money. and i wouldn't say it is ANDROID (googles) fault for fragmentation, it is the manufacturers fault for insisting on running their skins over top of googles OS. if google forced manufacturers to run stock android, i would guess even a higher percentage would be on 2.x
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  5. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    i'm asking this because i hadn't seen this and not to be smart. where does it say that they're talking about 4.x when they mention the "latest version" of iOS and not the actual latest version?

    and your last two sentences contradict themselves. it is Google's fault because they allow manufacturers to run their skins. Apple doesn't have fragmentation problems because (1) there is only one device, and one manufacturer and (2) because they don't allow anything on their OS that they don't approve including down to a logo from their carriers.

    What Google allows is the very definition of fragmentation.
  6. dmacleo
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    dmacleo Premium Member Rescue Squad Premium Member

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    this whole argument is a fallacy IMO. plenty of computers won't run certain software (or all features of an OS) on windows and linux, but nobody yells about this with them.
    this is only used as an argument against android.
  7. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    i'm pretty sure all of the newer android phones from the D1 up have the capability to run gingerbread. it's not a hardware limitation. it's fragmentation
  8. kodiak799
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    kodiak799 Well-Known Member

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    But there is fragmentation in the PC business. You can't talk fragmentation in a vacuum ignoring installed base. Fragmentation is only an issue when the ROI isn't there for developers and so they quit making software.

    I have mixed feelings on the UI. Sure, I'd prefer Google put an end to that so everyone can easily get pushed the latest updates. But the cell mfrs are just trying to protect margins. In PC, almost all the profits are in OS, software, and chips. But I don't see the custom UI adding much value. What the cell mfrs should really focus on is a proprietary home launcher that users have the option to uninstall. I guess that's kind of what they're trying to do and doing badly.
  9. hemorrdroid
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    hemorrdroid New Member

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    I'd much rather have fragmentation than one phone to pick from. I converted from iphone for a reason. If people want an iphone, go get one. There is always something to complain about, if you look hard enough.
  10. cereal killer
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    cereal killer DF Administrator Staff Member

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    Bold for emphasis...end of discussion. This is why I cringe when I see people use the word "fragmentation." Fragmentation has become this word that people in the blogesphere like to vomit all over the place.

    Android fragmentation smagmantation....
  11. turdbogls
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    turdbogls New Member

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    i found the article....it is short, give it a read.
    Don’t Believe Everything You Read, Android Users are as Current as iPhone Users - Droid Life: A Droid Community Blog

    and you are correct, it is googles fault, but that is the whole thing about an open source. if the manufacturers just ran it as stock, i dont think there would be as big of a deal as there is now.
  12. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    I mean just saying that or dismissing the idea doesn't make it so...Do you think developers are going to continue to want to make software when we're up to the K version of Android? Especially when there will still be some users out there who may still be on Froyo or Gingerbread. The more devices that are created with different OS versions the more fragmented it becomes and the more devs/manufacturers have to provide support for an old OS. Google has to create some kind of standard and not just pump out OS versions at the rate of six a year. That leaves a crapload of changes for devs, users and the manufacturers to implement to stay cutting edge.

    It's only going to get worse unless Google figures out a way to standardize it. Comparing it to PCs doesn't make sense because you always have the option to upgrade your OS, provided your hardware supports it. With Android, the option is not yours, it's the carrier/manufacturer's call and as I mentioned all the phones out right now can support gingerbread and not one has had an OTA, or even talk of an OTA coming...and we all know the Samsung people don't even have Froyo...
  13. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    Good read. I see what you're saying but the .x revisions to ios4 are usually bug fixes. And we know that 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 are major OS versions. So it may be comparable in a way.

    ios4.1, 4.2, and 4.3 are still ios4. android 2.1, is eclair, 2.2 is froyo, and 2.3 is gingerbread all with major revisions and touted by google as new OS versions and not minor upgrades/updates
  14. jaycemiskel
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    jaycemiskel Active Member

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    I'm with Czerdrill. Fragmentation is an issue and will keep being an issue if Google doesn't deal with it. Unless they slow down the updates or make manufacturers actually update their phones in a more timely manner then it will get more out of control. I don't think it's so bad that it can bring Android down but it's still an issue.

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
  15. kodiak799
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    kodiak799 Well-Known Member

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    The flaw in that logic is the user has to BUY the new version of windows, and most don't (until it's pre-installed on a new PC). There are at least 4-5 common versions of windows still running out there, all the way back to Win2000.

    If fragmentation is a problem with Android, the growth of the Market doesn't show it. And while more version of Android will make things more fragmented, the installed base is also growing very, very fast.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  16. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    it's not a flaw in the logic at all. if the user had the choice to buy an android upgrade there wouldn't be talk of fragmentation and devs would be able to create apps specifically for the OS version they wanted to and not have to support older versions (you bought an OS upgrade at a premium so you get to use my app). the fact that these os revisions are offered for free by google, but then never see the light of day on the 60+ android devices proves that fragmentation is a real problem. and thats because google has no standard. they just release a crapload of OS versions, begin to ignore the old ones, and fail to realize that carriers and manufacturers are not passing the OS's along to the end user. So the dev who's developing for Gingerbread ends up supporting phones running Android 2.2 because it'll be available in their Market and then force close twenty times.

    if MS OS updates were free and were dependent on the manufacturer we'd have the same problem. If HP releases updates and all their computers are running Windows 7, whereas Dell is still on Windows Millenium edition, you think people wouldn't complain about fragmentation? Especially if there was a "Windows Store" where everyone can download software? The reason you don't hear about PC fragmentation (except when you're defragging your hard drive :icon_ banana:) is because the user has the option to upgrade. Whether you pay for it or not is irrelevant.
  17. kodiak799
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    kodiak799 Well-Known Member

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    Fragmentation is a description, a condition. Whether the user has an option to upgrade or not is irrelevant, the fact that they DON'T upgrade is where fragmentation comes into play - an update not pushed vs. one not bought is a distinction without a difference. The developer still has to support that old version and the new version if they want new sales. Android developers can choose not to support a version or handset as well - when the user upgrades they get the latest and get the app. You're contradicting yourself - very rarely do you see new PC software out that only supports the current and latest OS. You make it backwards compatible because the ROI justifies the R&D.

    Fragmentation is nothing more than a boogeyman term. This is not a Linux "if you build it they will come" issue. The installed base is real and large and the ROI for developers is real. Like I said, fragmentation certainly hasn't hurt the growth of the market. Fragmentation is every bit as much of an issue in PC yet we don't here about it because the ROI makes it irrelevant.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  18. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    Fragmentation hasn't hurt the growth of the market because everyone and their mother can access and install every app that a dev puts out even if it's incompatible with their OS version. Growth is not a direct correlation to whether or not fragmentation exists, it is a direct correlation to how fragmentation will also grow...you think the devs are not annoyed by having to release maintenance updates for their apps every other day? (exaggeration, yes, but I've received more updates to my Handcent then I can count and they're almost always "adding support for Galaxy S", or "fix force closes on phones running Gingerbread roms") If you're not a dev, you really can't say that with certainty could you? I created one app for the Android market, that got like 200 downloads, an utter failure, haha, but I could imagine the nightmare I'd face if it became popular and I had to release updates for each new android device or os version. The ROI for android devs is not anywhere near it is for iOS devs and that's because of fragmentation. Even from a time perspective, the time spent on maintaining an android app is ridiculous compared to an iOS app.

    I've never once heard anyone complaining about PC fragmentation (until now) simply because it's a non-issue. I just tried to Google and find one article about PC fragmentation and couldn't find even one. If you can find one, please provide it, as I've never even heard of such an issue before. In Windows, software is often compatible across OS's by the work of the developers themselves ensuring compatibility...Or you simply cannot install that software unless you meet software requirements. With android, someone running android 1.5 can install an app that was developed for GB, run it somewhat and then watch it force close and then bother the dev about it. there is no standard with the way apps are created, run or installable in android. Couple that with manufacturers including their own "tweaks" to the android base and you get a mess. That's why fragmentation is real and not some boogeyman concept...
  19. kodiak799
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    kodiak799 Well-Known Member

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    Fragmentation on PC's is a non-issue because there is big money on it.

    Again, you can't discuss fragmentation without talking about the ROI. ROI can be thought about in terms of two opposing forces - fragmentation and installed base (or market size). So long as installed base increases faster, or at least proportionately, with fragmentation the ROI is at least stable.

    And that's precisely why you don't here about fragmentation in PC even though it has virtually the identical issue - multiple screen sizes, literally hundreds of hardware configurations, 4 or 5 or more versions of Windows (and then there's Apple, too, and Linux)...not to mention the million updates Windows sends out that sometimes requires a developer to update their app. That is the "definition" of fragmentation being used here, but you don't hear it because the money involved makes it a non-issue.

    Is the ROI higher for IOS? Sure, but that's irrelevant, all that matters is if the ROI for Android is high enough to make the investment worthwhile, and clearly it continues to be.

    Just to make an extreme example to illustrate the point - what's worse, 3 OS's on 4 D1's, or 5 OS's across 4000 DX's? Fragmentation, by definition, is greater in the latter, but fragmentation will be a much bigger issue with the former because you cannot ignore the installed base (it's an opposing force)
  20. czerdrill
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    czerdrill New Member

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    But we're not talking 5 OS's on one "D"...we're talking 5 OS's on 60+"D's". And at the end of 2011 it'll probably be 7 OS's on 80+"D's"...as it becomes more fragmented the ROI becomes lower not higher. No android dev is making millions off their apps, other than ones (usually companies) who already have an established base on their iOS version and simply ported it over. The ROI for regular, do it yourself in your basement devs is totally not worth it. The time spent to code, the time spent to support their apps, the time spent on maintenance all for scant return is not worth it, at least in my eyes.

    The more that Google doesn't pursue some kind of standard the worse it'll get. It's not as if when we reach the K version of Android, that all phones running Eclair will self destruct. At that point we'll have 9 android versions across almost 100 phones (yes, there are people who still run 1.5, and 1.6), all of which will be able to install apps coded for every other version of the phone. How you don't see the mess that will cause is beyond me.

    By the time Android Zebra Stripe Cheesecake comes along, it'll be a complete mess if Google doesn't give the manufacturers or the devs some kind of app/software creation standard. Open source is all great and dandy but it gets out of hand when there are a million different ways to do the same thing...
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
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