AT&T Emphatically Declares it Will Not Support Unlocked Bootloaders Now or Ever

[kodiak799]

what bothers me is that those doing the illegal tethering just dont get it. they are the ones who drove vzw to the tiered plans, and at which point vzw decides to kill unlimited for everyone, there will be a river of tears, and i doubt they will see even then that its their fault.

I'm not sure a few abusers drove VZW to tiered plans. Despite the increase in capacity with LTE, you're talking 4X as many users (when the market fully matures) using 2-3X+ the data, which will eventually bog down even LTE (until the next gen, anyway).

Just look at what has been happening and how much easier it has gotten to blow thru data. I wipe my cache every night, and Google Currents alone I've seen chew-up 1gig a week. Now I can update that on wifi only, if I choose. But if plans weren't capped, why would people bother?

Then you have everyone pushing cloud storage - 1 hour of music a day can easily burn thru 2 gigs in a month by itself. The more apps we get on our phone, and the larger those apps get - take a look sometime at how much data app updates chew in a month (most noticeable if you flash a rom and let Play restore apps). Again, you can update on wifi only but why would you if your data wasn't capped? 2 gigs is a good amount of data, but you have to plug "leakage" and ration on-demand need vs. stuff that can update via wifi only.

And here's the clincher - despite all the tough talk VZW still has done virtually nothing to people rolling up huge data amounts on unlimited. I've heard rumors of a few but I've never seen anyone dinged for abusing unlimited, much less the occasional/moderate tether use. It's no longer a big enough segment of users for VZW to care about, IMO. Plus they soaked us all for $10-$15 a month more when they took away our subsidy.

And, no, the tiered plans are not about gouging customers on overages. Besides being a drop in the bucket, VZW makes it fairly easy to modify plans online as monthly usage dictates, and they are pretty accommodating if you call customer service. They really don't want to hit customers with overages because it tends to be bad for business, but the overages are steep to force you into the plan that you need.

 

[Dalvik_Cache]

Believe it or not carriers don't actually do this just to be jerks, there is a reason. Part of the problem is that anyone with a PC that knows how to double-click a batch file can typically unlock and root their phones. As most of you know once you're rooted almost anyone can SSH into a device without having to know a complex root password. Generally speaking, the device listens on all interfaces, including the carriers private network. I have actually seen root phone bot nets that communicate over the carriers private network. I have also seen users who have flashed custom base bands and radio images that cause massive RF problems for not only their own device, but for everyone on the same BSID. Long story short, to a carrier root is like handing a loaded gun to an 8 year old, and expecting it to go well. While there are folks who are well educated, and trained, the people who don't understand what power they wield screw it up for everyone else.

From a consumer standpoint I get the whole "I bought it I can use it however I want" mentality, but the fact of the matter life isn't that simple. Just because you buy a car doesn't mean you can drive it 100 MPH down the road. If you do, there are consequences.

I'm not justifying the carriers position I just wanted everyone to see both sides of the story.

these carriers just don't get it, generally, you have to try pretty hard to brick a device with an unlocked bootloader.
they should all have a process to unlock it should we choose, and if they want to void the warranty at that point, so be it.
we paid for the phone so we should be able to do what we want with it, if that includes unlocking and voiding the warranty, that's our choice to make.

 

[SquireSCA]

i agree if you pay per gb you should be able to do what you want, but on the same note its the carriers fault for allowing truly unlimited for the phone. they pretty much shot themselves in the foot by allowing an unreasonable amount of data to be linked to the phone. i also see there point about wanting to get paid for the hotspot, although with the unlimited phone data they obviously caused a problem for themselves, as we see it as the same data paid twice they see it as stealing. which i believe it is because they have it setup as clearly 2 different services, regardless of how much data you have.

what bothers me is that those doing the illegal tethering just dont get it. they are the ones who drove vzw to the tiered plans, and at which point vzw decides to kill unlimited for everyone, there will be a river of tears, and i doubt they will see even then that its their fault.
however, they will only have themselves to blame, and we all will be the ones suffering.

They didn't drive VZW to tiered plans. That's BS.

VZW offered more expensive Unlimited plans at a time when very few people used much data. It was extra revenue for the perception of "lots of data", when they knew that very few people would actually use much more than the cheaper data plans. We payed the money because we wanted something, even if we were not really gonna use it, and at the time technology was such that you would have to go out of your way to use lots of data.

Today, everyone is using Pandora, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and using tons of bandwidth whether they tether or not.

VZW sought to capitalize on this by getting rid of Unlimited and putting higher priced tiers in place.

Using airtime minutes and texts costs VZW next to nothing. Data on the other hand, is the new cash cow. Now that everyone is hooked on data, they decided to jack up the price.

It wasn't because 1 out of 5,000 subscribers had a root tethering app.

 

[bweN diorD]

I'm not sure a few abusers drove VZW to tiered plans.

i only disagree with this. ^^
im betting its more than you think, and doing it at all is technically abuse, it all adds up imo.

im not saying that's the only reason for the tiered, although i may have implied that in the other post, i didn't mean to.

 

[kodiak799]

VZW sought to capitalize on this by getting rid of Unlimited and putting higher priced tiers in place.

To be fair, they have costs and it's more than just potential capacity issues.

I remember seeing where the average access fee per subscriber (to the actual pipes, wireless just connects you to the pipes) was @ $3.12. That was back when average use was 250-500MB per month. Stands to reason if the average use were to increase by a multiple of 10 that the pipe providers are going to jack-up their fees. Not linearly, but maybe up to $10. That would certainly necessitate tiered plans.

Further, once LTE became a viable alternative to home broadband, I imagine the pipe providers pushed back HEAVILY against unlimited plans because it was a real threat that people would drop home broadband (especially with tablets and tethering entering the mix), at a loss of revenues to them $30-$50/month per user.

It's inconceivable the pipe providers would just sit on their thumbs and ignore what's happening in mobile. Besides wanting to grab their piece of a bigger pie, they would also certainly take steps to protect their revenue streams.

 

[kodiak799]

i only disagree with this. ^^
im betting its more than you think, and doing it at all is technically abuse, it all adds up imo.

That's the popular opinion, but the fact is VZW has never actually done anything to those abusers. Eventually they took away the subsidy and not a peep since. Their ACTUAL actions (as opposed to speculation and inferring things that weren't said or done) suggest it was a far more trivial issue for VZW than people made it out to be.

 

[pc747]

So does this mean that ATT will stop offering Nexus phones?

VZW is aweful when it comes to Unlocked phones, and yet they allow Nexus devices on their network.

I think that for us, Nexus is the only way to go from now on, or Google Experience versions of other phones. I for one am tired of having to mess with my phone and the constant battle between obtaining root, then an OTA takes it away, etc... It disrupts the Devs and it seems like at least on my RazR HD, they never quite catch up. There is not a single ROM out there that is as good as the stock Moto ROM, and the reason is that it took so long to get Root and an unlocked bootloader on this device, that it was a day late and a dollar short when they did. It just hasn't gotten the attention and focus that other devices have, and the quality of the ROMs for this phone shows that.

Doesn't matter if they offer nexus phones or not. You can buy one from Google play and pop an att sim card in. I know a couple of reps at the att store i go to who have nexus devices.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4

 

[bweN diorD]

To be fair, they have costs and it's more than just potential capacity issues.

I remember seeing where the average access fee per subscriber (to the actual pipes, wireless just connects you to the pipes) was @ $3.12. That was back when average use was 250-500MB per month. Stands to reason if the average use were to increase by a multiple of 10 that the pipe providers are going to jack-up their fees. Not linearly, but maybe up to $10. That would certainly necessitate tiered plans.

Further, once LTE became a viable alternative to home broadband, I imagine the pipe providers pushed back HEAVILY against unlimited plans because it was a real threat that people would drop home broadband (especially with tablets and tethering entering the mix), at a loss of revenues to them $30-$50/month per user.

It's inconceivable the pipe providers would just sit on their thumbs and ignore what's happening in mobile. Besides wanting to grab their piece of a bigger pie, they would also certainly take steps to protect their revenue streams.

the pipe owners wont be happy when we get this 4G | 4G Wireless Mobile Network | Qualcomm
rumored over the next couple years.

 

[bweN diorD]

That's the popular opinion, but the fact is VZW has never actually done anything to those abusers. Eventually they took away the subsidy and not a peep since. Their ACTUAL actions (as opposed to speculation and inferring things that weren't said or done) suggest it was a far more trivial issue for VZW than people made it out to be.

what is/was the subsidy?
i still get 3 different discounts on my bill, im guessing its none of that.

 

[bkdodger]

Some good posts here... I do feel there are plenty people who are a danger with what they are doing when rooted..but at the same time we have a very smart developer community and they will find a way to unlock phones anyway..so these same people will still be a danger plus you are adding to the chances of someone screwing up the phone trying and then turning it in anyhow (which I don't agree btw ..own up if you play and mess it up be accountable)...As for tethering unlocking a bootloader will not stop it...There are methods to tether with a locked phone so you are not stopping anyone anyhow...You should look into those that are using a ridiculous amount and abusing the system..Then you offer developer phones anyhow...so now the carrier is saying it's ok pay full price get the developer phone...And you are letting everyone do what they want anyhow and you agree to this because you charged full price?? HMMMM so it's ok if I pay but not ok if I want it subsidized....And believe me we are all paying for it anyway ..they are making plenty of money and all this is accounted for from the beginning...it's business !!

 

[kodiak799]

what is/was the subsidy?

The subsidized phone. After Jul 2012, I think it was, VZW no longer let you keep your old plan if you wanted a subsidized phone on contract. So if you didn't want to pay retail for a new phone, then you have to part with your unlimited data. The amount of the subsidy has been estimated at $350 over 2 years, so $15 per month.

 

[kodiak799]

the pipe owners wont be happy when we get this 4G | 4G Wireless Mobile Network | Qualcomm
rumored over the next couple years.

Agreed, but they still own the pipes. So if the carriers want to offer unlimited data, for instance, the cable guys are going to be concerned with losing their own broadband subscribers.

I've said before, a fair cost of truly unlimited data (with tethering) is probably $80+ per month ($30 to VZW, $50 to the cable guys whose broadband service you ditch). Because don't forget the trend away from cable to internet streaming tv/movie services. The cable companies address the latter with their bundled plans (your broadband is more if you don't also subscribe to cable). So if you were to ditch broadband and cable for VZW unlimited, the cable companies lose at least $80 a month.

Down the road I think everything comes into your home wirelessly. Maybe we'll even get some sort of booster so you don't have to constantly tether your phone. So unless they can somehow block tv streaming (which seems unlikely), figure on hiking your cell bill $80-$100. People expecting truly unlimited data for $30/mo are living in fantasy land.

 

[bweN diorD]

Agreed, but they still own the pipes. So if the carriers want to offer unlimited data, for instance, the cable guys are going to be concerned with losing their own broadband subscribers.

I've said before, a fair cost of truly unlimited data (with tethering) is probably $80+ per month ($30 to VZW, $50 to the cable guys whose broadband service you ditch). Because don't forget the trend away from cable to internet streaming tv/movie services. The cable companies address the latter with their bundled plans (your broadband is more if you don't also subscribe to cable). So if you were to ditch broadband and cable for VZW unlimited, the cable companies lose at least $80 a month.

Down the road I think everything comes into your home wirelessly. Maybe we'll even get some sort of booster so you don't have to constantly tether your phone. So unless they can somehow block tv streaming (which seems unlikely), figure on hiking your cell bill $80-$100. People expecting truly unlimited data for $30/mo are living in fantasy land.

for me, home net would only be $20 more than i pay now (@ your $50 estimate), and really i only have the hotspot as a convenience. i use it at home 99% of the time. so they can try to jack my bill or take away unlimited if they want, ill just give the $50 to the cable guy and vzw will get $0.
who knows, maybe that's what they want.

 

[SquireSCA]

Some good posts here... I do feel there are plenty people who are a danger with what they are doing when rooted..but at the same time we have a very smart developer community and they will find a way to unlock phones anyway..so these same people will still be a danger plus you are adding to the chances of someone screwing up the phone trying and then turning it in anyhow (which I don't agree btw ..own up if you play and mess it up be accountable)...As for tethering unlocking a bootloader will not stop it...There are methods to tether with a locked phone so you are not stopping anyone anyhow...You should look into those that are using a ridiculous amount and abusing the system..Then you offer developer phones anyhow...so now the carrier is saying it's ok pay full price get the developer phone...And you are letting everyone do what they want anyhow and you agree to this because you charged full price?? HMMMM so it's ok if I pay but not ok if I want it subsidized....And believe me we are all paying for it anyway ..they are making plenty of money and all this is accounted for from the beginning...it's business !!

That is true. You pay either way. I figured it was better to pay for the phone outright and not deal with a contract. The problem is, if I pay full price for the phone, I am still paying a subsidy in my monthly bill.

They bake the subsidy in to everyone's bill, it is why they can sell you a $700 phone for $199 a month. But if you pay the $700, they don't lower your bill because you are not needing a subsidy.

So in the end, even if you pay full price, you then end up paying for your phone TWICE.

 

[TheOldFart]

That is true. You pay either way. I figured it was better to pay for the phone outright and not deal with a contract. The problem is, if I pay full price for the phone, I am still paying a subsidy in my monthly bill.

They bake the subsidy in to everyone's bill, it is why they can sell you a $700 phone for $199 a month. But if you pay the $700, they don't lower your bill because you are not needing a subsidy.

So in the end, even if you pay full price, you then end up paying for your phone TWICE.

Correct. That's why I feel like I have to get a new phone as soon as I'm eligible. I'm going to pay the subsidy anyway. I have no desire to give Verizon $15-20 per month and get nothing for it. Of course, after 20 or 24 months I want a new phone anyway.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, phones are getting like computers. They're getting to the point that they are still usable for the average person after 2 years. When I bought a computer 20-25 years ago, it was insufficient the day I bought it. Now, my nearly 3 year old Dell 2.8 GHz i5, 6 GB RAM is more than fast enough for processing my RAW photos and anything else I use it for. Phones are getting there for the average person.

Normally the full price at Verizon is $400 more than the subsidized price, so I assume that is the subsidy. After the subsidized price drops in 6 months or so the difference is even greater than $400.